Episode 25

Interview 25: Roisin Brady from LanguageNut

With the new MFL curriculum coming up, I thought I'd speak to someone who knows a thing or two about teaching languages. Róisín Brady from LanguageNut joined me to explain how she thinks the curriculum is going to work out.

Find more: http://languagenut.com/

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello, you are very welcome to if I were

the minister for education from on shot

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dot net, a regular podcast where I dive

into the world of primary education in

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Ireland and let you know what I would

do if I were the minister for education.

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This is Simon Lewis speaking.

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If you enjoy this podcast, please

consider subscribing to my fortnightly

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newsletter, where I go through some of

the news from Irish primary education

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and beyond from my own perspective.

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And I also give some hints and tips from

the classroom, some technology tips and

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other bonus materials that's at onshaw.

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net slash subscribe.

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I'm sure like many of you, you

are wondering what the new modern

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foreign languages curriculum subject

that's going to be coming into the

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primary curriculum in the next couple

of years is going to look like.

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We haven't heard a lot of information

except for the fact that it's coming, so

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I thought it would be a good idea to find

somebody who knows all about languages.

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And I'm delighted today to be joined

by Rosin Brady, who is the head

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of Irish schools at Language Nut.

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And she's going to talk to us about the

new curriculum subject a little bit.

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What she thinks is going to

look like which countries have

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introduced foreign languages and.

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Possibly badly and what

we can learn from them.

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And we're also going to explore a language

note which is a fantastic app, which I've

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had a little go up myself and learn a

little bit more how that might help us as

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we begin our journey into teaching another

language that isn't English or Irish.

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Or maybe you've had a taste

of another language as well.

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And we'll see how that can

maybe enhance that too.

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Ro you're so welcome to if I

were the Minister for education.

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Thanks, Simon.

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Thanks Amelia for having me on.

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I'm delighted to be here.

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Great stuff.

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So I always start off, it feels like

an interview for a job, but maybe

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you can tell us about yourself and

your journey to becoming the head of

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the Irish Schools of Language Notes.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I started out doing applied languages

and intercultural studies at DCUI

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then moved on and I did an M fill

and applied linguistics at Trinity.

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I am also an EAL, French

and Spanish teacher.

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I've worked at primary secondary

adult education and further

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education and some third level.

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I've been very involved in the, say, s

ges program since it began in:

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And I've actually rolled this out across

a huge number of schools all over Dublin.

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I've put together, the learning

plans implemented them.

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I've delivered it, I've overseen it,

and I've actually used Language Nut

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to deliver this as language program

in a lot of schools, both as a

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specialist and a non-specialist teacher.

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Fantastic.

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Wow.

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Interesting.

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That's a great summary of your past.

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Very good.

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So what we're gonna talk about

today is MFL, or as one of my

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staff joked with me there it sounds

more like FML to US teachers.

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That's a meme, which I can't repeat

'cause it's got a rude word in it.

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But what is, for those of us who

don't know at this stage, what is MFL?

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MFL stands for modern Foreign Languages.

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You know what we think of as what, when we

go to secondary school, French, Spanish,

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German, Italian, Spanish and so on.

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Great stuff.

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Okay.

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And so it essentially European languages

as opposed to other languages that are,

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doesn't have to be European languages.

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What I've seen from schools across

the board who are participating

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in the, say a language program.

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Let's use those as an example maybe.

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Because these are the sample

modules that schools are doing

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on behalf of languages connected.

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Kinda in preparation for the rollout

and implementation of MFL at primary.

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It can be French, Spanish European

language, but in my experience the

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majority of schools have gone down the

road of French Spanish because that's

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what's taught in the feeder schools.

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But I've had huge demand for ISL.

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Irish sign language and other schools

are also teaching maybe Arabic, Mandarin,

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and other languages that could maybe

have that might be widely spoken in

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their school community like Romanian.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So it, it doesn't, it, it doesn't

necessarily mean it because

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again, traditionally, certainly

when I was in school the language

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is an where, French German.

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Spanish and maybe Italian, but I know

obviously that's expanded hugely.

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Particularly it's expanded hugely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so it doesn't have to just

be French and Spanish, but they

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are the most requested languages.

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And even when we look at other

countries like England and Scotland

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who are rolling out similar programs,

the most requested languages there

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are French and Spanish as well.

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Interesting.

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I'm glad you mentioned England and

Scotland potentially and anywhere, any

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of Britain, because I think they're

very similar context to us in Ireland

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in that, we're native English speakers

I guess in in, in our countries.

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And in some ways we're paying, playing,

catch up with everywhere else because most

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other countries have their own language,

whether that's a Spanish, French,

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German, Romania, whatever, language.

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But they tend to be really good

at certainly English, because I

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suppose it, it's the international

language but other languages as well.

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So you mentioned that you've

looked at England and Scotland.

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What have you learned from

those two countries in terms

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of what they've been doing?

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Okay, so I've looked at England and

Scotland because like they, they're

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the two countries that are closest

to us and we are following the same

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pattern, the same type of model as them.

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Okay.

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So I've looked at the language

trends, England Language Trends,

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Scotland Report had a look at it.

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Obviously, language not is widely

used in England and Scotland for

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primary school, MFL teaching.

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I've seen is that overall,

it's been very well received.

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Very well received in Scotland

by students and teachers.

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And in French and Spanish being

the most requested languages here.

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But the issues, let's say in England,

any the barriers has been just limited

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time to deliver the curriculum among

schools lack of teacher expertise.

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And teacher shortages.

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In England as well, they offer a lot of

Mandarin, along with French and Spanish.

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Okay.

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In Scotland, the barriers, it is

been very well received in Scotland

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and there's been a huge amount of

enthusiasm among students, which

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suggests great potential growth.

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There again, but the barriers identified

have been teacher shortages, which will

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affect the quality and consistency.

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Of rolling out this initiative

limited curriculum time, which

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leads to then reduced opportunities.

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Okay.

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So different there from

what we're seeing because.

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When I have, I've been in so many primary

schools with this a s language program

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and I've spoken to so many teachers

and principals and the concerns there.

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There are concerns there from teachers

and principals in primary schools,

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and they are that, how are we going to

deliver this because we're not experts.

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And how are we gonna

have the time to do this?

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Because, we already have quite a

wide curriculum here to fit a day.

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Yeah.

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I suppose when we look at the primary

language curriculum, which is pulling

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on this plural linguistic approach,

what I would suggest is that, teachers

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don't have a huge amount of time.

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That's why, tools like language

are here to help you save time.

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And to deliver authentic resource

lessons through great resources ready

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made, that's gonna save you time

and support nonspecialist teachers.

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But with the primary language curriculum,

with this plural linguistic approach that

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maybe if you're running out time, then.

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Kind of, add in little

snippets throughout the day.

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Yes.

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And foster that idea of language

learning, pulling in with the pl

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linguistic approach and other languages

spoken for that intercultural learning

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aspect throughout the day, if you think

you're gonna run outta time for your

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20 minutes or 30 minute allocation.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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I think, and I'm not sure if most teachers

feel this way, but I certainly do.

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One of the i, areas where I'm feeling

a little bit anxious about this new

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curriculum subject is that I don't speak.

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Very many languages other than English,

Irish, and a smattering of French.

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And I can order a beer

in Spain, but that's it.

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I, and the odd word here and

there, I can swear in Polish, for

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example, the, these kind things.

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I'll get far,

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but it's.

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I think that's the struggle, particularly

when I suppose you, I think of other

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countries that where English isn't

the first language and you have

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children, age 10 and 11 coming to

Ireland speak, who are, I'm thinking

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of Spanish students and they're well

able to hold up a conversation and my

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fear is that, I am I, there'll be an

expectation on me as a teacher to get

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the 10 and 11 year olds in my school.

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Enough equipped to hold up a

conversation in our language, and

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given that I don't have even close to

whatever the minimum, being able to,

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beyond ordering a beer, as I said.

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When we go back to the primary

language curriculum it is about

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this idea of communication.

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Okay.

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So when we go, this will be rolled

out to students from third class to

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sixth class, and in third and fourth

class we'll be focusing mainly on

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like oral and oral communication.

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Okay?

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This is how it's going to, how it's

gonna work, but a tool like language

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not is here to support teachers because

as I said, I've spoken to so many

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teachers and that this is the concern.

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How are we going to do it?

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So if I talk to you a little bit

about like how Language Note can

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help you do this Language Note is

an interactive language learning

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platform and it's designed for

language teachers and students.

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Okay.

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So we have primary resources

in over 20 languages.

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Okay.

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Including French, Spanish, Italian,

as well as Mandarin and Arabic.

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And we have open resources which

cover vocabulary lists, phonics and

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games, grammar and verbs, sentence

building principles and lesson plans.

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Ready made lesson plans.

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Okay?

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Ready made resources all there for you.

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Then we also have a fully

resourced, primary guided course

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for French and Spanish, which

are the most requested languages.

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And that's designed particularly

for non-specialist teachers.

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So you've had a little

look on the platform.

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You'll see how it works.

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There's audio built in into the platform.

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So for example a non-specialist

teacher can actually just go onto

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the primary guided course and

they can go slide by slide, lesson

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by lesson without even having to

plan, and it's all done for them.

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If, and you don't have to follow

the course, you can actually go

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in and you can look at the lesson

plans and pull out what you like.

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It's all there.

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We have vocabulary, flashcards,

and it's all interactive.

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You can play this front of class

and there's the built in audio, so

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you don't even have to say words

that you're not comfortable saying.

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And be afraid of, oh, I'm

going to be teaching, students

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incorrect pronunciation.

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Because the audio is built

in, so like for example, if we

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have up Spanish flash cards.

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Based on say greetings, Allah,

the students will then repeat

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Allah, and it's all there.

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They're gonna repeat what

they're hearing all the time.

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Okay.

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So teachers don't have

to worry about that.

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Even when we're doing anything

in class, you can put up in the

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interactive board and students will

just repeat what they're hearing there.

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Okay.

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And then we have English as

a support language there.

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It's all done for you in the sense that

you have that support, that it's ready

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made resources, ready made lesson plans,

and we'll go through everything about

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this is what you're going to learn.

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Here's the vocabulary

you're going to learn.

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Here are some support extension

exercises for you to do.

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And in terms of that, we're working then

again, with mixed ability differentiation.

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That all ties back into the curriculum.

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Okay.

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The, I'm sure you probably saw

when you saw the platform, it's

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it works very well for everybody.

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So students in the class who

have any additional needs,

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we have it's very visual.

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We have additional support there

with a need, a hint section where

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students who can, they just can listen

orally to the English translation

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and in the target language.

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We have extra features there,

like a little snail that

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will slow the audio down.

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This will also help teachers.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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One thing I should say is that in terms

of so a language that's there to not only

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support the students, but there, it's

there to support non-specialist teachers.

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May Youth University are running

their first elective upskilling course

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for primary students at the moment,

and they're actually using language.

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Okay.

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To upskill for this elective course

to upskill the students language,

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not, is not only a tool that can be

used here for, delivering interactive

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and fun engaging lessons to students

from non-specialist teachers.

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It can be used as a tool to

upskill our teachers as well.

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Okay.

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Would it be fair to say for someone like

me if I, my, my principal buys language

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nut for the school and I haven't done any.

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Real CPD on languages that I

can almost learn the language.

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As the children are learning the language

or at least be one step ahead like you're

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leaving certain maths teacher as the

classic example, they're always just one

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page ahead of the students kind of thing.

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, absolutely.

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This is going to be an investment

not only for the school in terms of

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allowing the students to progress

in their language learning journey.

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It's gonna be an.

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Yeah.

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You like, if a school, for example,

decides we're gonna sign up to

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language, not, and a lot of schools

are in Ireland are doing that now.

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We have hundreds of schools all over

England and Scotland are using language.

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Not for this reason because of

the element of the non-specialist

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teachers there to support them, but.

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If schools in Ireland sign up to

language, not it's, you're already,

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you're set up with resources ready

to go to deliver authentic and

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engaging lessons to your students.

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But teachers can then use

this as their upskilling tool.

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You can do it together,

you can do it self-paced.

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Very good.

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I wonder and this is just a curiosity

really more than anything else.

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There, there might be

some people who might say.

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We're expected to be fluent in

Irish even if we don't speak it.

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And are we going to be good enough

to teach, let's say another language

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if we don't know the language and

we're learning as we go along.

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What would you say to people who might

say, look this is, this is something that.

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They should, that that

they're worried about.

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Because I suppose at the base of

all Irish primary school teachers,

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or at least most of us, are able to

speak Irish to reasonably high level.

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And therefore you can tailor the

lessons a little better and be a bit

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more flexible when you don't speak the

language that you're trying to teach.

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What they, there may be a concern

there of, I'm just gonna have to follow

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along here, almost language by numbers.

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In, in a way.

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I, is that what would you

say to people like that?

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I would say to them, I said I really

appreciate it because, you are being

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thrown in the deep end a little bit.

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Okay.

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So I.

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I understand how difficult it is.

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There are a huge amount of teachers out

there who do actually have a primary

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degree in a modern foreign language.

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You'll be surprised.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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But again, there are those who don't.

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I would say, even going back to this

idea of the primary language curriculum,

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as teachers yourselves, think back

to this and draw on the experiences

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from the languages that you know.

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Most of us have done a modern

foreign language for leaving cert.

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Yeah.

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And that is in the back of your head?

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Okay.

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That is there.

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That's dormant.

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So when you go in, so for example, it's

French, which most of us have probably

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done until up until leaving cer.

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When you go on and you look at language

notes and you look at the start off,

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the, basic greetings, flash cards

and sentence building exercises,

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phonics to get, your ear going

here, it will bring it back to you.

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You will remember it.

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Think of it that way, that

you are actually ahead here.

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You have done this until leaving start.

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Yeah.

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Most of the students in your class

haven't, but because the platform

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is so strong at supporting the

non-specialist teachers through audio.

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And that's all done for

you, that embedded audio.

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You can be repeating that.

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You can be listening to that yourself.

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You're always gonna be one step ahead.

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'cause you'll know what you're going

to be delivering in the class that day.

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It is quite like, if I'm honest like

I the first one I went to was I to do

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a French lesson and there's this game

on it called Where you pop bubbles.

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Oh yeah.

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And ISI can't remember exactly what it.

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Over 20 years since I studied French.

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But I've been to France a couple of

times and I'm always, I'm often slightly

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surprised by how much I remember.

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But I also dismayed by how frustrating.

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It's that I can't remember most of

the stuff I learned, obviously, but

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at the same time I got a hundred

percent in the first, lesson.

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So it, I get that's me bragging now

here, but then I moved on like to

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Arabic, which I've never spoken before.

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I can't read it because

obviously it's and so on.

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And I guess I found myself going.

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I gave up a little bit, so I, I just,

and also, look I wasn't invested in

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learning Arabic really, to be honest.

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So that's probably no, probably why.

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This is probably why as well.

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When we look at the Say Yes to

Languages program and we look at

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what's happening in England and

Scotland, why is French why is it that

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French and Spanish are being chosen?

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Most likely because these

are, the languages have been.

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Studied, most by primary school

teachers and maybe in some cases German.

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'cause we do have some schools

here who have signed up to

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language not to deliver German.

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Yes.

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'cause I have a teacher in the

class who may have done German

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to leave and search and so on.

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Yeah.

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So maybe this is why, the primary

guided course in French and

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Spanish is, it's an excellent tool.

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Like I've used it myself, even as a

specialist teacher, you just go on and

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it will tell you your learning outcomes.

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This is what we're going learn

today, class, and then we move on.

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What I should just to you as I.

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Spoke there.

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Previously just about students in

your class with additional needs.

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That word pop game is a great

example of how we can cater

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to everybody in the classroom.

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For example, you might not have

seen this when you're on that game.

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The bubbles move quite fast.

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Yes.

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Just for anybody listening, you

have to basically click the bubble,

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which matches the translation

of the words you're being asked.

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And the bubbles move very fast.

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So there's a little snail icon

if you click on the snail.

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Once the bubbles slow down.

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Yeah, if you click the snail

twice, they stop completely.

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And we purposely have a white

background with black writing.

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So that means that any students

with a learning difference like

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dyslexia, they can work very

easily with this, or a dyspraxia

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or just any other additional needs.

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And then we have the need a hint

section, which students can go up.

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And they can look at, and teachers when

they're learning as well, can do this too.

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And they can listen to Bonjour, and

then it'll say, hello, good morning.

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And, you can do things hourly.

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Yes.

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Because there is a big focus in primary

school even when we're looking at EAL

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maybe just doing things hourly, listening.

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Yes, absolutely.

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I, and actually I tried one of the

activities where you had to speak

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the thing and, 'cause I wanted to

test whether it would understand

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my dreadful French accents when I

was, one, one of the quizzes where

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you have to speak and whether it

would understand what I was saying.

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And it worked like quite well.

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Like I tried to trick it a couple of

times and I succeeded a couple of times.

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But if I went at, for example, if

I was supposed to say, and I said.

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Hell app, they, they, it

wouldn't understand it.

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But if I went one week, maybe

it did, so it, yeah, but at the

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same time it was good enough.

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It was actually surprisingly good, for,

so you know, for what you're supposed

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to be doing, I think as well, because

I've used language, not myself in the

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primary school classroom, I do think and

I've been in the primary school, this

395

:

classroom, there's great enthusiasm.

396

:

Among primary school students when they've

carried out the a s to languages when

397

:

they're doing it, and they're very excited

about being able to have a conversation.

398

:

Students will, go out after a few

lessons having these words, because

399

:

when you look at what's on the platform

it's encouraging, oral communication.

400

:

Yes.

401

:

In the language from the get go.

402

:

Again, it all ties back into that idea

of the primary language curriculum.

403

:

It's encouraging communication

at those very early stages.

404

:

Yes.

405

:

And there is even a part on the

primary guided course where it'll

406

:

just say conversation in class

and you can just click on it'll.

407

:

And you just click on those things.

408

:

If you're doing it in French, students

will repeat them and then you say, okay

409

:

guys, let's go around the classroom.

410

:

Let's practice this

together with a group work.

411

:

And you'll be, it's amazing that by

the end of the first lesson, students

412

:

are able to say their name, say

hello, and maybe ask somebody else

413

:

their name and they practice it.

414

:

Yes.

415

:

It's great to see.

416

:

Okay.

417

:

So I wanna delve a little

more into language.

418

:

Not really.

419

:

And I think we've got a good

overview so far of what it is.

420

:

I, in a way, what it does and we've

talked about the teachers like how

421

:

a teacher might use it, and even a

little bit on how students use it.

422

:

So I'm gonna give you a

bit of a scenario, okay?

423

:

I'm basically it's simple enough.

424

:

I'm I'm a teacher.

425

:

I have been given language up by

my principal to, and I've been told

426

:

we're, you're doing Italian and I

have a word of Italian 'cause this

427

:

is what our school are gonna do.

428

:

We go on a school trip in sixth

class Didly, or whatever it is.

429

:

And it'd be great if we have a few, a bit

of Italian going or whatever it might be.

430

:

How do I suppose what I'm interested

in is what's the teacher's experience

431

:

of language note, and then maybe what

will the students' experience be?

432

:

And I know at times there'll be a

lesson, but there'll also be times

433

:

where there might be times for

practice, let's say, for the students.

434

:

So how does maybe give I suppose a

short overview of that, if that's okay.

435

:

I would start off as the teacher.

436

:

First of all, it depends.

437

:

You can use language notes in

a variety of different ways.

438

:

It's so versatile.

439

:

You can use it front of class

on your interactive board.

440

:

If you're a school who has

access to devices, you can set

441

:

your students up on devices.

442

:

Each student will get their own

unique username and password.

443

:

And, then you just add

your classes on here.

444

:

So you basically, you could have language

in front of class, you could have students

445

:

on devices working independently as

well, and differentiated activities.

446

:

Depending on, they're working on, but

let's just go with the more simple idea

447

:

here of, we're front of class, we bring

up class one greetings in Italian.

448

:

Okay, so what you'll do is you'll

bring up those vocabulary flashcards.

449

:

What you can do is you can, you can

take off the English translation, you

450

:

can take off the written Italian, and

you can just do it hourly if you like.

451

:

But it's nice for the students

to, to see the words as well.

452

:

You can press play and, but will happen

is the students will be brought through

453

:

kind of general vocabulary for greetings.

454

:

Let's say, hello, good

morning, good evening.

455

:

And they would play on the board and

students would repeat after each of those.

456

:

Okay.

457

:

You can do that a few times.

458

:

Then you can take off the

English translation and

459

:

you can test the knowledge.

460

:

That way you just keep pressing the audio

and it will come up to the students.

461

:

Then you would move on to the

practice exercises, again,

462

:

covering four components, reading,

writing, listening, and speaking.

463

:

Then you can decide which

game you're going to go into.

464

:

So you can go through the

different games on the board.

465

:

There's your matching games

multiple choice games, like

466

:

just to match up everything.

467

:

It's all auto graded as well.

468

:

So if students are doing

this on their own devices.

469

:

They're going to get instant feedback

about what they're getting Correct.

470

:

What they're getting incorrect.

471

:

Okay.

472

:

And everything that the students do on

the platform, by the way, they get points.

473

:

Okay.

474

:

So it's a great motivator for them.

475

:

You can set homework on

the platform as well.

476

:

Again, it can be differentiated if

you want, and then they can go home

477

:

and they can work on their individual

devices to complete the homework.

478

:

So that's how it would

look like in the class.

479

:

For the teacher, you would have

this already planned, but you can

480

:

add assignments onto the platform.

481

:

You can build up a library of assignments

to assign out to your students, but

482

:

if you're gonna use it front to class,

you can just decide, you actually go in

483

:

and look at a lesson plan, for example.

484

:

Yes.

485

:

Okay, you can just go

into vocabulary, Italians.

486

:

Very first one, greetings or basics,

and you click on the lesson plan and

487

:

it will show you everything there.

488

:

You could follow that step

by step yourself, okay?

489

:

Okay.

490

:

Okay.

491

:

Even with no Italian, but

you have a lesson plan.

492

:

You're going in armed with

this knowledge and you flash

493

:

French.

494

:

And I would say Ola.

495

:

And I'd be doing it

with the class as well.

496

:

Yes.

497

:

There's also little songs and stories

as well on the platform there that

498

:

you can play great for the students.

499

:

When I've done the Say a program, I've

always really started a class and ended

500

:

a class with a song, always the same one.

501

:

Every time.

502

:

Okay.

503

:

'cause then by the end of the course

they can sing along, they know it

504

:

and they have some words, yeah.

505

:

Fantastic.

506

:

They some words.

507

:

Yeah.

508

:

And it's reinforcing the words

that they've already used.

509

:

Exactly.

510

:

So that's, it's gonna support you

in that way because you're going in

511

:

armed with ready-made resources and

a lesson plan and the support of

512

:

the platform and the built in audio.

513

:

You don't really have to do anything

but click on the students to repeat.

514

:

Very good.

515

:

And then you can walk around the classroom

and, practice a conversation and so on.

516

:

You can get the students up to

the board if you touch Screenboard

517

:

and practice the exercises.

518

:

So you'd have matching games.

519

:

Like I might say, Bonjour,

and you have to say, click.

520

:

Hello, goodbye.

521

:

Good afternoon.

522

:

Good morning.

523

:

Fantastic.

524

:

Yeah.

525

:

Everything is also, is always going to

be reinforced with the audio, everything.

526

:

Brilliant.

527

:

Because it's important, especially

at that kind of third, fourth class,

528

:

we're gonna be focusing a lot on

oral communication, speaking in this.

529

:

Exactly.

530

:

Exactly.

531

:

I have a couple more

little questions for you.

532

:

I think maybe a fear of some teachers is

that they're, they don't know what level.

533

:

They're going to need to

bring the children up to.

534

:

I think there might be a fear of, I know

maybe unfounded, I suppose in, in, in

535

:

Irish you're almost, I don't think we

expect the children to be fluent in Irish

536

:

by the time they leave primary school.

537

:

But for whatever reason, there's

this sort of expectation that

538

:

they'll need to at least be

conversational in particular language.

539

:

How far will something like

language not bring a teacher?

540

:

And their class.

541

:

By the end, let's say of six class,

what would you expect children to be

542

:

able to do with four years language?

543

:

If we, I dunno if you're familiar with

the CEF or, the common European framework

544

:

for reference of languages, that's

measured with can-do statements and I

545

:

think this is actually something that.

546

:

Is really important maybe for

primary school teachers to look at.

547

:

Yes, because if you look at

those can do statements, that's

548

:

a really great measuring tool.

549

:

I can say my name, I can

give basic information about

550

:

myself, abeginner, a one.

551

:

So I would say, again,

it depends on the group.

552

:

Students are gonna be very enthusiastic

about this 'cause they are with

553

:

the say the Languages program.

554

:

Sure.

555

:

I would say, it's a hard question to,

to pull outta the air with levels,

556

:

that yourself as a teacher, but it

could be up to maybe level A too.

557

:

Because I do think, and again, we are

we haven't been given a huge amount of

558

:

information on this for the Department of

Education, but third and fourth class is

559

:

going to be mainly general conversation,

a focus on intercultural learning, which

560

:

I should say, if you follow the primary

guided course for any of the resources,

561

:

there is an element of intercultural

learning with kind of topics.

562

:

About the country for

each section as well.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

Okay.

565

:

And because that is important

as well to know and, students

566

:

will like to hear about the.

567

:

The language that spoken in the

country that they're learning

568

:

about, little snippets about that.

569

:

But it's difficult to predict.

570

:

But third and fourth class,

it's gonna be very basic.

571

:

Very basic, and if we're focusing

on greetings, basic information,

572

:

colors, that kind of idea, you

can just keep reinforcing that.

573

:

And they will with the tool like language

because the, it's so strong with the

574

:

practice of reading, writing, listening,

speaking and there's so much on it there.

575

:

I think that, after third and

fourth class, there's no reason,

576

:

but there would be like, an A one.

577

:

Level.

578

:

Okay.

579

:

And for those of us who aren't EEL

teachers or haven't delved into language

580

:

learning, sorry, a one and a two I just

to for listeners who don't know what

581

:

that means what kind of level is that?

582

:

A one is a complete beginner,

but you can give information.

583

:

General information, basic

information about yourself.

584

:

A two then is the level up

from that building on it.

585

:

Okay.

586

:

So they're the beginner levels.

587

:

Okay.

588

:

Okay.

589

:

B one, B two.

590

:

B one is like low intermediate,

B two and high intermediate.

591

:

Fantastic.

592

:

Yeah, that's that, that's great.

593

:

But again, it's hard to

put, to measure progress.

594

:

It's very difficult to I to do, I

know that, I remember even when I was

595

:

teaching English as a, an additional

language when back in the day that,

596

:

you were dividing the, the kids

into different groups and, even at

597

:

that point, it was difficult whether

they were, lower intermediate, yeah.

598

:

Hired and then, the different age

group, it's a, you won't have that.

599

:

You won't have the.

600

:

The choice of who's going to

be in front of you either.

601

:

So there'll be all sorts of levels, all

and, and all sorts of abilities and so on.

602

:

We're told when we look at the primary

language curriculum that, fourth and

603

:

fifth and sixth class, they will be moving

on to maybe more grammatical structure.

604

:

Little bit more difficult.

605

:

Third, fourth class is very

basic oral communication.

606

:

Fifth and sixth will move on a little bit.

607

:

Very good.

608

:

Great And language note can bring them

that, bring them all the way to that

609

:

language note, can bring them that

language note can bring them even further.

610

:

Okay.

611

:

Like it, it's all there, it's

all there for the taking, it

612

:

can bring them really quite far.

613

:

Yeah.

614

:

No, that's quite assure

reassuring I think in a way.

615

:

And I know we're both shooting in

the dark a little bit 'cause we

616

:

haven't got the guidance yet from

the Department of Education, but it.

617

:

It's I feel you're probably right that

it's going to be most likely to that

618

:

level rather than, I suppose maybe.

619

:

Again, I'm thinking back to all the, all

these Europeans that I meet who come to

620

:

Ireland with the like, phenomenal English

and I and I'm just going, oh my gosh, I

621

:

wish I could, I wish my Irish is as good

as your English is, that kind of thing.

622

:

But I think, yeah, I think we're

stepping stones maybe at this stage.

623

:

For.

624

:

I think you're probably right.

625

:

I suppose it leads me to my

next question and be which is

626

:

are you confident that this new

curriculum subject is going to work?

627

:

I.

628

:

I am very passionate about it.

629

:

Okay?

630

:

Simply because this is what

I've done for the last 20 years.

631

:

I've been so involved in Yeah.

632

:

Promoting language

learning and everything.

633

:

And, I've been so involved in CS

language problem since it began.

634

:

I have two children myself.

635

:

And, we're constantly kind of build on

language skills there, but I, yeah I

636

:

am confident, but it has to be right.

637

:

Teachers have to be armed

with the right tools.

638

:

It's about tools, teachers,

there are many teachers who are

639

:

not skills in another language.

640

:

So they have to be armed

with the right tools.

641

:

And th this is why.

642

:

And to be honest, this is why I came on

board with the language nurse, because

643

:

I could see what this was happening.

644

:

And I saw this platform, this tool that I

just thought, oh my God, this is amazing.

645

:

We need to have this in Ireland.

646

:

Yeah.

647

:

They're using it all over Scotland and

primary schools and secondary schools.

648

:

I should add as well, if any

secondary school teachers out there.

649

:

Yeah.

650

:

But this has been used all over

England and Scotland following the

651

:

same model that we're going to follow.

652

:

And the feedback is really

positive, schools are using

653

:

this, we should be using it.

654

:

That's why I got involved and it's just.

655

:

And then I got to test it out

myself in the primary classroom.

656

:

And I could see how effective it was.

657

:

I could see the response of

the students I can see as well.

658

:

I think that when we're using such an

interactive, visually visual tool that

659

:

when you're moving around the classroom

encouraging students to speak, this isn't

660

:

just about, like just right all the time.

661

:

This is about listening,

speaking, communicating.

662

:

Fantastic.

663

:

And I really have been so impressed

with the work I've already done

664

:

with schools all over Dublin.

665

:

Using language notes to bring students

up to a nice little conversational level.

666

:

Be able to give basic information.

667

:

My name is my ages.

668

:

I live, talk with their family,

no colors, numbers, all of these.

669

:

Yeah, for sure.

670

:

Okay.

671

:

My last question I always ask anyone

who comes on the show is the one

672

:

that everybody dreads, which is if

you were the Ministry of Education.

673

:

So you have the reigns for a day,

you can do whatever you want, it's

674

:

a dictatorship, and you can do one

thing to the, to, to primary schools.

675

:

So what is it that you would like to do

if you were the Minister for Education?

676

:

And it doesn't have to do with

languages, but it sure can be.

677

:

It

678

:

listening to this.

679

:

But if I were the Minister for Education,

I would ensure that all primary schools in

680

:

Ireland were signed up to language notes

to ensure basically that implementation

681

:

of MFL at primary level is a success.

682

:

Okay.

683

:

It has to be successful.

684

:

We've we've spent so much time now rolling

this out in sample modules, and the only

685

:

way for this to be a success and for

686

:

tool.

687

:

Success to me means that teachers are

supported with a teaching and learning

688

:

tool that enables them to deliver

interactive and engaging lessons

689

:

while students are also engaged and

motivating and enjoying the language

690

:

learning process and experience.

691

:

Okay.

692

:

Again, this can be used

for teacher upskilling.

693

:

I should just point out as well that.

694

:

Language note can be availed off for

free by second year PME students.

695

:

Fantastic.

696

:

That is credible.

697

:

Great opportunity to get used to

using the net tech tool and maybe a

698

:

little bit of upskilling for yourself.

699

:

Brilliant.

700

:

Brilliant.

701

:

So this is sounding much more promising

to me than it was before I talked to you.

702

:

To be honest with you, I was started

my interview with you full of dread

703

:

that I was gonna have to become

fluent in 20 different languages.

704

:

And maybe perhaps this conversation would

ends up starting in English and going

705

:

to French to German, then to Arabic,

and then I'd be all, all over the place.

706

:

But

707

:

school teachers listening

to this conversation.

708

:

We'll feel the same.

709

:

Yeah.

710

:

That's the point.

711

:

There's something there

to help you, so use it.

712

:

Exactly.

713

:

Exactly.

714

:

So if people do want to find you and or

ask you any questions or connect with

715

:

you any way and maybe find out a little

bit more mi more about Language Note,

716

:

what's the best way they can get in touch?

717

:

Get in touch at roche@languagenut.com.

718

:

I'd be really happy to,

have a chat with you.

719

:

The best thing to do is actually

to come onto a personalized demo.

720

:

Where I can show you around the

platform, answer any questions you

721

:

have, and then I'd give you a two

week free trial to try this out with

722

:

your students or have little play.

723

:

Fantastic.

724

:

And I, I just wanna say thank

you so much for coming out.

725

:

It's really interesting particularly,

because it is something that a lot

726

:

of teachers are talking about at the

moment and I think, you've given me

727

:

a lot of reassurance and I'm sure

you'll have done the same for any of

728

:

the teachers listening in for this.

729

:

Thanks so much roi.

730

:

Thanks for having me, Simon.

731

:

Really enjoyed it.

732

:

Thanks.

733

:

So there you have a very

interesting conversation.

734

:

I hope you'll agree there.

735

:

Between myself and Rosin, I must

admit, I went into this conversation

736

:

feeling rather cynical about the

new curriculum subject that's going

737

:

to be the modern foreign languages.

738

:

And I've come out of it a little

bit more confident than I was and.

739

:

Since recording this with Rosin, I've

been very lucky to have visited another

740

:

country on an Erasmus Plus trip where I

went to Denmark to find out what they do.

741

:

And one of the things I was

interested in was how they work

742

:

with modern foreign languages.

743

:

And it's interesting that English, I

suppose, is a foreign language in Denmark.

744

:

But it's taught from the very start.

745

:

And I think that's very similar to most

European countries where they have their

746

:

own language and English, and they speak

English quite fluently, but they also

747

:

teach either French or German from around

fifth class, fourth or fifth class.

748

:

I, I couldn't figure out what, what it

was, but around fourth or fifth class,

749

:

which was, was quite interesting.

750

:

But the level that's expected of them

is very similar to what Rosin was

751

:

kind of, and going on about there.

752

:

And when I thought about it, I had this

really interesting conversation with the

753

:

principal of the school and he was telling

me that some children come into primary

754

:

school in Denmark, not speaking Danish.

755

:

They actually speak

English at home with their.

756

:

Parents and their parents are actually

Danish that English is starting to

757

:

take over from the Danish language.

758

:

So they actually have to reteach Danish

and they're in a kind of this interesting

759

:

sort of position that Ireland kind of

has long gone past where most people

760

:

in Ireland speak English at home and

then they're taught Irish when they

761

:

come to school and to, you know,

to various degrees of fluency and.

762

:

I kind of feel like maybe in 10, 15

years, so maybe a generation's time in

763

:

Denmark, you're gonna have a very similar

situation to where Ireland is right

764

:

now, which is everyone speaking English.

765

:

But learning Irish in school

and being somewhat decent at it

766

:

by the end of primary school, I

think you're gonna have something.

767

:

Well, I dunno if you'll have something

similar in Denmark, because everything

768

:

was taught through Danish and in

some ways what they have in Denmark.

769

:

Is they've got the equivalent of

the grail skull as the default.

770

:

Whereas in Ireland, we've gone

so far down the line away from

771

:

the Irish language that the grail

skull is actually not the default.

772

:

And maybe that's where we need

to be striving for if we're going

773

:

to I I suppose just to give a

comparison, and the other thing it

774

:

taught me really in a way is we do.

775

:

Have a foreign language that

we already teach in Ireland and

776

:

that we already use in Ireland.

777

:

And yes, it's the English language.

778

:

In some ways it's not very, I'm not

trying to sound patriotic here, but

779

:

it was when I thought about the way

young Danish children are speaking

780

:

English as their first language and

Danish as their second language, I

781

:

kind of thought, gosh, in a way that's

kind of where we should be at, and.

782

:

I suppose by the end of primary

school we, we do have two languages,

783

:

Irish and English, or we should have

two languages, Irish and English.

784

:

Very much like most other

countries in Europe who have

785

:

their own language and English.

786

:

And they might have a third language.

787

:

And I think that's where we're going to.

788

:

And the third language, I think

is taught to a much lower level,

789

:

so that level A two or B one level

that Rosin was going on about.

790

:

So look.

791

:

I mean, I just thought that was an

interesting aside from my travels

792

:

when I was, when I was there.

793

:

And I dunno what you think yourself it

might be, might be worth considering,

794

:

but I certainly, Roe's conversation

with me certainly has gave me

795

:

a lot of, a lot to think about.

796

:

I'm certainly less nervous

about the subject coming

797

:

into the curriculum because.

798

:

In some ways I probably have enough

French, despite having not spoken

799

:

French for nearly over 20 years

to be able to teach the basics.

800

:

You know, I understand 'em and I learn

can learn along with the children.

801

:

And I think, you know, while it's not

ideal, I mean ideally it would be lovely

802

:

for to have native French speakers,

native German speakers, native Spanish

803

:

speakers, native, any speakers coming

in and teaching the language well.

804

:

And do doing well and making children

much more fluent in more languages.

805

:

But I don't know if that's going to be

the intention of this new curriculum.

806

:

I'm not sure if that's a pity

or if that's just the way it is.

807

:

And I suppose I'll leave that

question hanging because I.

808

:

You know, I might have

my own opinions on that.

809

:

I'm not sure what yours are.

810

:

So that's it for me for this week.

811

:

I hope you enjoyed the interview.

812

:

I certainly did.

813

:

As I said, it really gave me a lot

of food for thought, as they say.

814

:

And I hope my little anecdote at

the end may have given you a little

815

:

bit extra to think about as well.

816

:

Listen, thanks so much for listening.

817

:

If you enjoy this podcast, please

consider subscribing to it.

818

:

And I will see you very soon.

819

:

Well, before I go I'm thinking of setting

up a second podcast of a series of very

820

:

short podcast, which will be AI generated.

821

:

But I'm hoping you won't know

their AI generation really.

822

:

I found this really good tool and looking

to play along with it and seeing if I

823

:

can do some interesting things with it.

824

:

So keep an eye out for

that on the on shot.net

825

:

podcast series, but from this one,

if I were the Minister for Education.

826

:

Thanks for listening.

827

:

All the very best.

828

:

Bye-bye.

829

:

Yeah.

830

:

Yeah, yeah.

831

:

Yeah.

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis