Episode 26

Interview 26: Paula Korsnakova and Eliane Segers (IEA)

As educators, I wonder do we think much about the research that is done about education. I spoke with Paula Korsnakova and Eliane Segers from the IEA (International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement) to talk about educational research, with a focus on reading from digital devices.

The following links may be useful if you'd like to learn more:

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello, you are very welcome to if I were

the minister for education from on shot

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dot net, a regular podcast where I dive

into the world of primary education in

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Ireland and let you know what I would

do if I were the minister for education.

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As primary school teachers, even though

we work in the field of education,

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I'm not sure how many of us actually

think about the research that's

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out there that goes into the things

that we do every day on the ground.

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I was approached by an

organization called the IE.

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A, the International Association for the

Evaluation of Educational Achievement.

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They are an international cooperative

of national research institutions

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government research agencies, and

a bunch of other people all around

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the world based in the Netherlands.

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And essentially simply put, they are the

group of people that you may know better

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from some of their studies, namely.

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Tims, T-I-M-S-S and Pearls, P-I-R-L-S.

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Many of their studies you would possibly

be familiar with, however, they are

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at the moment trying to promote some

simple kind of ideas, which they

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call snippets that they're published.

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They're kind of like little booklets

almost for teachers on the ground to

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teach certain aspects of the curriculum.

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And the one they're currently promoting

is on reading from a digital device.

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And as many of you know, children

these days are doing a lot of

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reading from digital devices.

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And I suppose the question that

was asked is, is it doing any good?

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So that is their pro project, but I

decided I would chat to them about that,

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but also about educational research and

I was very, very lucky to be joined by.

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Two of their researchers, and I hope

you enjoy the interview with them.

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And this time I am being very exotic

because I'm traveling outside of

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Ireland for my podcast this time.

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In fact, I am traveling virtually.

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To the Netherlands and well via

Finland and also to Slavia and

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Slovakia via the Netherlands as well.

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It's very international episode today,

but why I'm doing that is because I'm

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speaking to two very interesting people.

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Eliana Sagers is the professor of

learning and technology at bout

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university in the Netherlands, and

I have Paula Kova, who is a senior

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research and liaison advisor to the IEA.

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And we will be talking today about

research with a kind of a little view

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on reading and the study of reading.

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I know this is a, an area

that a lot of Irish teachers

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are exploring at the moment.

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Particularly with lots of changes going

on in our primary language curriculum

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over the last few years, but also some of

the latest research that's coming our way

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around how children learn how to read.

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And I know the IEA have developed a number

of resources that might be useful for

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you as teachers, and that's what we're

going to be really talking about today.

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So you're very welcome to, if I were

the Minister for Education, Eliana.

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Thank you.

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Now, I suppose the first question

I like to ask people without it

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sounding like a job interview, but

it probably does, is just to tell

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us a little bit about yourselves.

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So we might start off with Paola.

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In the beginning I was thinking in

between agricultural and education,

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and then I picked the biology and

mathematics as teacher education.

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In retrospect, I see

that it's very similar.

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Basically we are patient about growing.

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We know that there are opportunities

but also that we are not in full control

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which makes our profession so exciting.

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So I, I did some teaching, then I did

some research in, in, in Slovakia,

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came across international large scale

assessments, comparative studies.

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Moved to Amsterdam, the Netherlands worked

with IEA in different roles, and now I am,

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as you said research and liaison advisor.

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Fantastic.

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And Elian can you tell us about yourself

and how you got into education and a

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little bit, a bit about what you're doing.

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Okay.

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Yes.

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Thank you.

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So how I got into education, I grew

up in the eighties, nineties, and

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when I finished my master's, I was

asked to do a PhD in developing

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software for kindergartners.

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It was in the late nineties, former

previous century, and there were

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lots of computers already in the

schools in the Netherlands, but

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surprisingly, no software on it.

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And with my background in speech

technology and cognitive science, I

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was asked to develop such things we

did on CD ROMs if those, for those

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not so young teachers who know CD

ROMs Uhhuh and we designed software

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and I studied the effectiveness

of it and have been going on.

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In that field ever since broadening

from kindergartners to towards teenagers

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as well, reading comprehension.

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So it's always been the combination

of learning, reading and

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technology, which fascinates me.

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Amazing.

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That's really interesting.

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I funny, I, just as it happens,

I actually did my masters in and

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my question was, can a computer.

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Better teach reading better

than a teacher, and I

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developed a CD ROM for that.

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Must be the age.

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Yeah, I think my results

were inconclusive.

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Thankfully, so that's why I think

we're still, I still have a job.

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A few.

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Let's I suppose what I want to get I

think before we maybe talk about the

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IEA and the work that you're doing, I

think Irish teachers were and I suppose

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all teachers from different countries,

they're always very interested in

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other countries education systems and

how they work and what they believe

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the strengths are and maybe what

things they might learn from Ireland.

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I'm not sure if that's something,

maybe Eliana you might be able to

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tell us a little about your country's.

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Education system,

particularly a primary level.

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And you know what you feel about it

and maybe things that you might know

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about Ireland and what we're doing Well.

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Okay, so the Netherlands are

little bit in a reading crisis.

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We love the term crisis in the

Netherlands, and we are in a little

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bit of that because for pearls,

the international assessment, the

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Netherlands scores have been dropping.

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And as I said before, we look at

Ireland as our shiny example because in

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Ireland things are going really well.

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How can that be?

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Not sure.

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I've read a little bit about

what Ireland is doing, at least

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there is a lot of appreciation

for what the teachers are doing.

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That's really good.

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A lot of focus on reading.

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And in the Netherlands what we are

doing is having libraries in the school,

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so bring the books to the children.

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I really like that.

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That's good.

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Since the reading crisis was

announced a few years ago there's

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more attention for reading.

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That's good.

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More adaptations have been

made in the curriculum.

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And I think what could be

improved is and that goes to

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the book that we wrote for ia.

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There could be more attention

for challenges of digital reading

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because there's no way around it.

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And some schools are pushing

against digital reading saying,

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no, we should do paper because.

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Not going towards all the new stuff.

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I don't know why not?

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure how Ireland is doing in this.

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Yeah it's an interesting one to write.

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'cause I think we're probably the same

questions are being asked over here.

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There.

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I suppose we have a very long

history of literature in Ireland

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where we're very well known.

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I suppose around the world for being

really good writers, in, in general.

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And the idea of, I mean there's so

many famous, contemporary and writers

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in Ireland, and the idea of moving or

using digital technology for reading is

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I suppose it's still controversial and

still the, those, the same questions.

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I been asked, for the last decade.

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It's interesting, isn't it?

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I really do not agree with

pushing against digital reading.

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We are also not reading

from a papyrus role anymore.

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So I think really schools need to

prepare children for being citizens.

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And as a citizen in current

society, you really should be able.

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To deal with the complexities

of digital texts.

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Exactly.

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And we'll talk a little bit more

in depth into that in a bit.

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I want to move back to you, Paula.

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And just more broadly

about educational research.

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'cause I think, sometimes I.

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When we hear about academics studying

and writing about anything from

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reading to any sort of research they

wonder how does it actually affect

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teachers in their day-to-day lives

on the ground in the classroom?

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I suppose you're involved as an

advisor and researcher with the IEA.

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A lot of Irish teachers may not know what

IEA stands for what it is or what it does.

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So maybe could you give us a little

brief summary of what the IEA is?

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Sure.

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The acronym is really not telling

much, neither the full name.

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We're the International Association for

Evaluation of Educational Achievements.

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Very good, but we are

not doing evaluation.

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Okay.

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We're international.

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So you are right.

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Mentioning that behind research

the origin is in academia.

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And also IA origin is with academia.

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And bit curiosity on what is educationally

possible, what could be achieved.

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Not from the perspective who is the

best and who needs to learn the most.

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It's more from the perspective to

document a context of education.

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We know that education is embedded, so

we need to know the most context we can.

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Find out that we can document

and then we can discuss together

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in, with participating countries.

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What would be the best way forward if we

are interested in knowing achievement?

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So with the study, we will

be speaking about pearls.

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The study has been originated in 2001.

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And since then there is ongoing re

refinement of framework on which

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instruments are based, and then

elaboration on instruments and changes

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of instruments to move with and

together with educational systems.

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Fantastic.

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And I suppose for this, I don't think

most teachers will will dispute this,

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but I'm gonna ask the question anyway,

is why is educational research important?

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I.

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From my perspective, it's the

perspective from research you

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are starting with hypothesis.

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With something you, you would like

to know whether it is happening or

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not, whether it is working or not.

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And then you are developing a

method and you are trying to collect

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evidence, but then the results may

be actually what is worth to engage.

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Different stakeholder, stakeholders

level, so teachers can think for

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themselves whether the the results are

in line with data personal experience

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or there is something surprising.

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This can be beginning of

discussions in teachers' rooms.

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Rooms.

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So it's also a avenue for reflection.

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Yeah.

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And engagement.

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Not only, disturbing school schedule and

using lessons for administering tests.

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That's the most annoying part.

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Yeah.

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Of the whole process.

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That we are afraid.

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It's the part that our colleagues

in schools are not very fond of.

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No, no one would be.

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No.

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And it's often what we're, what

we're judged on as well, isn't it?

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If you have anything to add to that.

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Just shortly that I think

research is crucial to know what

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works for whom in education.

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And if there's all new technology coming

out, AI now, lots of new things happening.

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You can't just throw that into the

classroom without knowing whether it's a

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good idea, whether it's beneficial or not.

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Yeah.

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So we need research for that for sure.

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And the why I suppose of

it's here and or why and how.

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All those, all the questions

really that, that we can ask for.

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Sure.

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And yeah, that makes absolute sense.

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I wanted to move into what we're.

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I suppose the meat of what we're

going to talk about today, and it

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was you touched on this Sian about

how Ireland is now being seen.

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I can't believe Ireland is

being seen as a shining beacon.

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We're always very critical of our

own education systems, but Ireland

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seems to have carved itself a bit of

a niche in the area of reading and

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literacy, and we seem to do very well.

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In that area, particularly,

in Ireland, we've become very

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obsessed with Pisa results.

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I don't know if it's the same in

other countries, and I know PISA

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isn't the only metric we are, we're

gonna talk a little bit about your

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metric and the study that used pearls.

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But suppose the first thing I want

to ask and I'll ask, I think I

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have power down for this one, but

Anne, please feel free to jump in.

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Is I.

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I'm I'm a bit cynical of, and maybe it's

because I'm in the Irish education system

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of why we do so well in Pisa, and if

there were other studies out there that,

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that kind of almost either backup what

PISA is showing about art and success

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and literacy, or if it's just one of the

it's just the, the way one study becomes

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very famous and it becomes the only

study, let's say that people take notice

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of, may I interrupt you, Simon, here?

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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Am I correct that Ireland is doing

pretty well in both PISA and Pearl?

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So for the 15 year olds and the

10 year olds actually do you know

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what I know in Pisa we are, but

I don't know about in pearls.

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Do you know?

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Do think so so that sort of

backs up the idea that something

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is really do going really well.

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I would say something, something is

working and it's interesting when

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you're in the middle of it all.

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You don't know exactly what it is.

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And I think we touched on that, but and

we must get into this because I, but

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before I do given that PISA seems to be,

the one that makes the media in Ireland

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more that, can you maybe tell us a

little about the difference between them?

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What are they?

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I know Pearls is your area,

but you might know about both.

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Sorry.

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Yes.

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I have started my international

large scale assessment engagement

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as pisa national research

manager in, in, in Slovakia.

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And I was with PISA for 2003.

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2006 and 2009.

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So there was also one, of

those focused on reading.

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The major difference in between OECD

and IA studies is where the institution

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organizing the study is located.

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Okay.

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IAS is located within

the educational area.

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So we ourselves as a.

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Curriculum is guiding document for

development of our assessments.

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We are taking the whole classrooms.

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We are doing grade base assessment.

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Not selecting cohort.

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Or students of particular age.

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Of course we have age limits in our

study, so we have grade plus age.

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But when we are coming to school,

we are asking and assessing

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students in one classroom.

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And we know the teachers that are, we

don't know, but the classroom is coming

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with teachers, so also those are.

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Embed the research in a real structure

of educational system and consider

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where the educational system is.

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Fantastic.

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And while OCD they need results.

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It's for economy, it's for labor market.

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Ah, so in Pros you have a students

small, young, that are just at the moment

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when they should be done with mastering

reading as a tool for further learning in.

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We have students that are to

the end of compulsory education.

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Meaning they are very soon either

available directly for labor market,

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or they are progressing towards more

closer preparation for their careers.

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And these are picked across.

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Different grades from grade eight to

11, depending on countries because

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there is particular age sure.

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Bracket.

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So you can imagine that the text those two

groups are reading, they are different.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Also, you can imagine that for

OECD, it's not so important what

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actually is happening in schools.

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Yeah.

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They need results.

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They need a number at the end.

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Is it?

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Yeah.

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They need the competence.

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They need to be to see that what

is needed has been developed.

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And in, in our case, it's more, of

course we would like we are very

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ambitious in school systems, of course.

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I can tell that in teams advance

once after field test, we had to

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redo instruments because our experts

were so ambitious and so confident

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in ability of their students that

the tests were just too difficult.

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Wow.

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We are ambitious as researchers

as teachers, but these two

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bodies, ia more educational OECD

economy driven labor market.

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We.

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Of course we have different approaches.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think that's very interesting.

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And I suppose that feeds into,

I, I guess particularly, again, I

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can only take, talk from an Irish

context that, that whole idea of.

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Economics being so important,

like being almost seen as

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more important than education.

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When we're talking about the Irish

I don't agree with this by the way

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but when we hear on the radio what

is the purpose of education, a lot

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of the conversation goes down to

the labor market, towards economics.

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And it's always disappointing

to me when I hear that.

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And I think probably that's

why when the PISA results come

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out, that's why the media are.

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Look at those.

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And they're always looking for

they never look for successes.

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I never ever see Ireland

being celebrated for literacy.

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But we always they always advertise,

oh dear, but your maps are terrible.

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That's how the media works.

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I assume it's the same in most

countries though, where they pick on

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the negatives rather than the positives.

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It's, would that be fair?

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It's unfortunate that it's always

a comparison between countries.

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It's like the song festival, and

whereas you should be looking at within

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your country if there's trends and

not if Ireland scores higher than the

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Netherlands, which it does, that's not.

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I know it's it almost turns it into

a sport rather than or like you

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say, the Eurovision song contest.

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It it's it isn't particularly helpful.

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And as much as everybody likes,

coming first or second in a

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competition, it shouldn't really

be a competition between countries.

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No.

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That, that, that makes absolute sense.

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Let's actually move on to what

you're doing at the moment and

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why we're speaking about, you

have developed really interesting.

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I ideas these short guides for

teachers on the grounds, and I had

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a look at one of them on reading

specifically around digital reading

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on digital devices and so on.

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Elian, that's your area isn't it?

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Maybe you could tell us a little about

the short guide for people who might

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be interested in finding out more.

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It's we were asked by IA to write

a book on how to teach digital

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reading comprehension in schools

related to the Pearls assessment.

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And we've done so, so the

book can be freely downloaded.

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It's for free for every teacher.

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It's giving back to teachers as

ia it, and there are also shorter.

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Things for teachers to read.

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And what's, what I think is most

important in the book is that we give

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guidelines to teachers on how to do

that with digital text because it's

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not the same as reading from paper.

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Yeah.

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But as I said before, you should

implemented in your lessons and

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modeling is a strategy that.

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Teachers know and do I assume?

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And so you should also do that with

digital reading because there are

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hyperlinks that you have to click on.

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You have to scroll, click,

et cetera, et cetera.

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And that's different than

flipping to the next page, right?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So the characteristics of

digital text are important.

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I.

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It is, you can also do it on

paper, but when reading online

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digitally, you most often have

to work with multiple documents.

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When you Google something, you are

quickly reading different texts.

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And that's a complication,

especially for children.

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If you have less prior knowledge

to have, to integrate information

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from multiple documents into one

mental model, that's a thingy.

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And that's what you need to learn.

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That's true.

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Because most of, yeah.

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I think most of what we're

reading now is online single test.

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Yeah.

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And is there a reluctance

from teachers to embrace.

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Sometimes So teachers, so sometimes,

so it depends, reluctance,

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maybe it's an unfamiliarity.

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That you feel that, oh, I

don't know how to do this.

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Maybe some, say some want to

stay with the paper, which I get.

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And it, but if you, in current

society, you need to be able to see.

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Or judge a document on its

trustworthiness, for example.

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Is it a real, has it been written by ai?

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Is it an opinion?

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Is it a fact?

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Is it so you need to be able to do that.

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That's crucial in current society.

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:

So it should be in the schools, and

most of that is digital, whereas.

406

:

When Simon, you, if you develop

CD ROMs, you have it too.

407

:

When you grew up, you went to the

library and what's written on paper.

408

:

That's true.

409

:

It's a fact.

410

:

It's what in the library.

411

:

You read it and you know that's true.

412

:

Whereas now if you are online, you read

something, you don't know if it's true.

413

:

Yeah.

414

:

Yeah.

415

:

And that's not easy for children.

416

:

This is it.

417

:

This is it.

418

:

And, I think schools are embracing

kind of media education where

419

:

they're, looking at looking at things

online and getting the children.

420

:

I.

421

:

To ask those questions

of, why was this written?

422

:

Who wrote it?

423

:

Why do you think they wrote it,

and what are they trying to do?

424

:

And they're very important questions.

425

:

And I think certainly, I can only

speak anecdotally really from my

426

:

own experience that we've we've

embraced in our own school the

427

:

idea of, a kind of, paper based.

428

:

Reading is obviously important and

isn't, we don't want to, stop doing that.

429

:

But we, when we've introduced more

digital texts and mainly outta necessity

430

:

because books are expensive and there

are really good, and there are some

431

:

really good digital tools online,

digital which are, and are trustworthy.

432

:

So moving away from trustworthy

they're just books, but

433

:

they're, they're on a screen.

434

:

We found that while that children.

435

:

And, but mostly their

parents are resistant.

436

:

And parents are resistant because of

this whole I, and again, I don't know

437

:

if it's the same in where you are around

the idea of too much screen time, so

438

:

they don't see the value of reading

on a screen versus reading from paper.

439

:

Oh, may I answer that question, Paula?

440

:

Sure, go ahead.

441

:

Time has a negative connotation.

442

:

Rightfully if you watch television I.

443

:

I can, I will not give an example,

but you, if you only watch the song

444

:

festival all the time, yeah, that's

not a good thing because you don't

445

:

learn too much from it, right?

446

:

So it depends on what you're watching on

television, if it's a good thing or bad.

447

:

So if you watch as a young kid, Sesame

Street, and your parent is sitting next

448

:

to you and helping you understand what's

being done, it's really good screen time.

449

:

And the same goes for when you're

on your tablet or on your phone.

450

:

On average, people see

negative effects of it.

451

:

Which is true if you are I don't know,

watching cat movies all night long.

452

:

Yeah.

453

:

You will not learn a lot.

454

:

But if your screen time is, if you're

reading the Irish authors of all great

455

:

times that you just mentioned Simon,

I would say that's good screen time.

456

:

And whether you read it on paper

or on screen, that doesn't matter.

457

:

Yeah.

458

:

Yeah.

459

:

So it depends what's, you

cannot blame the machine.

460

:

You blame the content.

461

:

Yeah.

462

:

Yeah, exactly.

463

:

It, I think you're absolutely right.

464

:

I think we are singing from the

same hymn sheet as the phrase goes.

465

:

I, it's it, and it's very difficult to

convince parents of this at the moment

466

:

because of the negative connotations.

467

:

Often I can come up with many

paper things, magazines that you

468

:

would not want your child to read.

469

:

True.

470

:

And you're not saying that paper

reading is a good thing then.

471

:

So it's.

472

:

That's very true.

473

:

If you're just reading Yeah.

474

:

I don't know, the same

magazine over and over again.

475

:

Yeah.

476

:

I dunno we won't go for examples.

477

:

No, let's not.

478

:

But I get you like, it, there,

there's, there's good reading both

479

:

on text and on digital and I think

it it's a, it's definitely one that

480

:

we need to, convince parents of that.

481

:

Just because you put something on

a screen doesn't make it worse.

482

:

Or less beneficial.

483

:

It can actually often be more

beneficial, I think, because of,

484

:

yes, young kids are on YouTube.

485

:

And that's not educational.

486

:

But if you have a

digital storybook, it is.

487

:

That's exactly right.

488

:

So why not have the young

kid have a digital storybook?

489

:

Absolutely.

490

:

And they're learning as well.

491

:

The skills of reading from that and also

the Yes, A lot of, I love some of the

492

:

augmentation that can be done and Exactly.

493

:

Which can really enhance and help the

child read more independently and so on.

494

:

Yes.

495

:

Presume a lot of this is in the guides

and that you're, you've developed.

496

:

And so the book that we wrote is.

497

:

Focused on reading comprehension.

498

:

So 10 year olds and the digital storybook

that I just mentioned, some are for

499

:

kindergartners, but those are really,

you can have it in all languages as well.

500

:

So you can read it at home in your

own, in your first language if it's not

501

:

English, and then in school in English.

502

:

So there's a win-win situation there.

503

:

Absolutely.

504

:

Gosh, it's benefit of

technology and if I may, I would

505

:

highlight

506

:

resulting measure.

507

:

For our limiting screen time can

be very bad for students that

508

:

have no opportunity to actually

engage with technology at home.

509

:

So basically in schools what we

can strive to achieve is to have

510

:

a good screen time in our results.

511

:

So we saw that students were using

that was ICL study, another information

512

:

and computer literacy study.

513

:

We saw that students were using

their equipment their smartphones or

514

:

other equipment for reading purposes,

but also for non-reading purposes.

515

:

That's the problem.

516

:

Yes.

517

:

And the same at homes.

518

:

Yes.

519

:

This is a mixed bag and I am

completely supporting what Elaine said.

520

:

We need to go into what is

going on the screen Exactly.

521

:

To judge.

522

:

Exactly.

523

:

And I'm just thinking while I'm

listening here, that, some of the

524

:

other benefits that maybe we, maybe

they weren't anticipated, but I didn't

525

:

anticipate them, how it supports other

very important aspects of life in the

526

:

21st century, like pure lingualism.

527

:

For example, when you have a book.

528

:

On a digital screen.

529

:

If it's on the paper,

it's in one language.

530

:

But all of a sudden, and particularly

now that AI is, has become better at

531

:

translating than some of the machine

translations that we've been using.

532

:

This has to be very exciting

for your own research, is it?

533

:

It is, yeah.

534

:

Yeah.

535

:

Especially bilingualism

is becoming the norm.

536

:

So yes, I think there's

really great benefits there.

537

:

Yeah.

538

:

And given that both of you are in

countries where, bilingualism is

539

:

and proper pluralism is a feature.

540

:

In Ireland we're, we often say,

oh we're a monolingual country.

541

:

We all speak.

542

:

We actually, we're a bilingual nation.

543

:

We though we just don't use our

Irish language as much as we should.

544

:

I was, we're very hard on ourselves,

but we are introducing, our new

545

:

curriculum in English or what was

our English curriculum, is now

546

:

becoming a language curriculum.

547

:

And not necessarily, we, I suppose

the emphasis will be on plural

548

:

lingualism, that we're going to be

making sure that, our very multilingual

549

:

classrooms are representative.

550

:

And I know we're not talking about that

today, but I suppose given that I have

551

:

you here I'm going to put you on the spot.

552

:

Is there something that.

553

:

We could learn from countries where,

you know, multilingualism and plural,

554

:

lingualism and bilingualism has been a

feature of education for, generations.

555

:

I would say Simon, you are in a very lucky

position because align with the team.

556

:

They also altered the first

book, the previous volume.

557

:

Now we are focusing on, on, on

digital uhhuh, but the first volume

558

:

was actually providing support and

suggestions for multilingual classrooms.

559

:

Wow.

560

:

So maybe Elaine could pick

some key points from the book.

561

:

For me, what was retrospect,

it, it really seems lo logical.

562

:

But I was anyway surprised that for second

language speakers, it can be much more

563

:

difficult to understand particular work.

564

:

Because it's missing from their vocabulary

than to evaluate the whole text.

565

:

Okay.

566

:

Okay.

567

:

But is.

568

:

Provide input.

569

:

Okay.

570

:

So I, there was not really a

question, but let's see what we

571

:

can learn from the Netherlands.

572

:

There's always a, I think it's a pendulum.

573

:

So sometimes the multilingualism

is embraced and then at certain

574

:

points it's saying, no, you should,

the parents should talk Dutch at

575

:

home and not have own language.

576

:

But currently we're in the good

situation, thankfully, that.

577

:

Should speak their own language at home.

578

:

So children who are proficient

in their first language will also

579

:

learn the second language better.

580

:

So read books in your first language

and then read them in a second language.

581

:

But parents should not be afraid

to not speak their own language.

582

:

It's really no.

583

:

Yeah.

584

:

And sometimes see that

parents still are afraid and.

585

:

Try to speak to their children in Dutch.

586

:

But then it's not a switch as

their own language, so really, no.

587

:

Okay.

588

:

Okay.

589

:

Multilingualism is now being embraced

and that's good, that's a positive thing.

590

:

That, I'm glad to hear we're

going in the right direction.

591

:

That's linguistic transfer.

592

:

That's so what you do, what you can, if

can rhyme whatever in your own language.

593

:

You can do it in the second language.

594

:

Very good.

595

:

That's really interesting.

596

:

Really interesting.

597

:

And I know we won't have time to go too

much into, but it's just, as I said, as we

598

:

were talking, I was thinking, gosh, that

it's funny things pop into your head while

599

:

you're talking to very interesting people.

600

:

So I'm interested, we've talked about

this particular short guide, and I

601

:

assume this is one of a number of short

guides that are going to be published

602

:

or are published Paula, what's what

other resources can teachers find if

603

:

they're looking for some short guides?

604

:

We are, we have just started, ah it,

it was not easy task for ia to, to

605

:

think of what we could contribute

meaningfully to, to the world of teaching.

606

:

The problem with our studies are that

they are set at the system level.

607

:

Yes.

608

:

Meaning we have samples that are

telling about the overall situation.

609

:

But we cannot go back to

particular student or teacher that.

610

:

They were selected to

represent wider group.

611

:

In the case of students, because

we are so bound to curricula,

612

:

we don't have all students

responding to the same instruments.

613

:

Yes.

614

:

So at the end we needed to find a way

of what we could meaningfully offer.

615

:

Yes.

616

:

And then we were thinking that

we have different contexts of

617

:

education, different cultures,

but we have some joint challenges.

618

:

Yes.

619

:

And then we were going from there

what we see in the data that me

620

:

as teacher would like to know.

621

:

And then we came to the

teacher snippet idea.

622

:

But that was only scratching the surface.

623

:

Sometimes you need much more

background, much more information.

624

:

What are your options?

625

:

To react on particular problem.

626

:

And we were lucky enough to have

expertise center in the Netherlands

627

:

that was actually originated

to support reading components.

628

:

And went from paper pearls because we all

started on as a pen and paper assessment.

629

:

Then explored Aprils with online

assignments for students in the test.

630

:

And now we are fully

digital as assessment.

631

:

Meaning of course we have items or passage

texts that are resembling a reading book.

632

:

But we have also this online

environment for students to solve.

633

:

So we were thinking, okay we saw there

is this, issue with second language.

634

:

The legacy in many countries the

imperial languages are having higher

635

:

status than domestic languages.

636

:

And there are different solutions

when and how to engage learner

637

:

with language of the instruction.

638

:

The more powerful or yeah

how the mother tongue is.

639

:

That was the first topic

of multilingualism.

640

:

And then with the transfer and chat

GPT and the social media campaigns that

641

:

completely ruined some, some aspects.

642

:

We thought we need to face this.

643

:

We also saw that students that are good

readers they're struggling much less

644

:

online than those that already had issues.

645

:

So we need to support all readers.

646

:

And then we got the second publication.

647

:

Our colleagues at IA that are dealing with

communication and dissemination efforts

648

:

they managed to get some information

about this publication in touch magazine.

649

:

Ah, very good.

650

:

Yes.

651

:

So colleagues can have a look and

find links to, to those publications.

652

:

Fantastic.

653

:

And for those of you unfamiliar with

InTouch Magazine I'm sure most Irish

654

:

teachers are very familiar with

it, it's the primary school unions

655

:

magazine that is published monthly.

656

:

I think there's nine or

10 publications a year.

657

:

And I it arrives in.

658

:

Pretty much every staff room in the

country and very well worth read.

659

:

It's great to know that it's,

and it's actually probably the

660

:

best place to reach teachers.

661

:

I'd suggest.

662

:

And and well done on getting

it into the union magazine.

663

:

Yeah.

664

:

That, that, that thanks.

665

:

Goes to, to IA communication team.

666

:

Calm and.

667

:

The thing is that we really need

to celebrate this second volume

668

:

on digital reading for sure.

669

:

It was not easy task and I admired

our authors and Elaine was among them

670

:

how we were iterating and going closer

to, imagine you, you are having book.

671

:

Put what is on your screen

and how you're engaging with

672

:

that on a, into a book format.

673

:

So I would really be interested

in opinion of colleagues if they

674

:

can go through it and drop a note.

675

:

Yeah, I think that would

be absolutely fantastic.

676

:

And what we'll do is, we'll, at the,

before we, when we finish we'll I'll

677

:

be asking you the best way people can

actually do that and provide their

678

:

feedback, because I think most people

who listen to this podcast ask are

679

:

very engaged in the education system.

680

:

I try to give, an

independent sort of slightly.

681

:

Off center sc analysis

of the education system.

682

:

So generally the people listening to this

have the same have are engaged in that.

683

:

We'll certainly do that at the end.

684

:

One question I like, I always ask my

guests on this podcast and I, it's

685

:

always, it can be a difficult one

for I suppose, people who aren't in

686

:

Ireland to answer because I suppose

it's a sort of an Irish question In

687

:

Ireland, our education system is.

688

:

Is strange, and I'm sure you're

more familiar with it than than

689

:

maybe I, I think, but we have a

minister for education in Ireland.

690

:

I know you minister for educations

in most countries, but they get to.

691

:

In some ways, they're in charge of the

education system and at a systems level

692

:

rather than at a on the ground level.

693

:

So I always ask, you know about what

my guests would do if they were the

694

:

Minister for education for a day.

695

:

They could change one thing

about our education system and.

696

:

I'm gonna ask you that question.

697

:

I've given you some time to prepare it.

698

:

So it's not the first time I've asked

you this question, so hopefully you've

699

:

had some time to think about it.

700

:

So I'm gonna ask you about that.

701

:

So what would you do if you were

shipped into Ireland and you were given

702

:

the Minister for Education portfolio,

you had a benign dictatorship, so

703

:

you could do whatever you wanted.

704

:

And I know your answer to this is

to dismantle this dictatorship.

705

:

If you had to make one rule, we hatched

which we had to at least discuss

706

:

and vote upon, what would it be?

707

:

I would make sure that digital

inequalities is prevented as much as

708

:

possible by making sure that children

have access to digital materials, but

709

:

also are able to use it to use the

digital technology because equality is

710

:

not just having or not having the machine.

711

:

But also knowing how to use it and using

it, because then you can drive further.

712

:

So that's what I would do after

I've set out the elections.

713

:

Oh, absolutely.

714

:

We need to restore

democracy, that's for sure.

715

:

For sure.

716

:

Very good.

717

:

And Paula, what about yourself?

718

:

Oh that's question.

719

:

Colleagues are thinking what would be

the vice thing to do in in, in such

720

:

case what to lobby for, what would be

the safe point to start development

721

:

improvement changes redoing whatever.

722

:

I think what maybe is now I'm of

course responding from my context,

723

:

so take it that, okay, this is

not Irish lady saying us this.

724

:

She didn't know.

725

:

So I am, I'm saying that what

I think is very important in

726

:

the field of education is to.

727

:

To start working together.

728

:

In a way that is because we

know how it is on the fields.

729

:

There are edges, there are

borders, there are walls, there

730

:

are these straps with thorns.

731

:

So it's difficult sometimes to

communicate with the colleague from the

732

:

next classroom or from another school.

733

:

We, we need to find a way.

734

:

How to discuss not only contractual

matters like trade union matters.

735

:

That's very important.

736

:

Sure.

737

:

In addition, it's also very

important to mind the purpose to

738

:

to discuss how we would like to

move forward as a society because.

739

:

Of society.

740

:

Contributing and can nourish and

contribute to a lot of changes.

741

:

And I had one initial reaction

when I saw the ship question and

742

:

the initial reaction was that.

743

:

Good.

744

:

Good.

745

:

Because I think basically in the

field of education, you have a

746

:

very highly educated workforce.

747

:

So I would think that any dictator.

748

:

Should have a real problem

to get through that.

749

:

Yeah.

750

:

Yeah.

751

:

I think they would.

752

:

But it's a very interesting, I

think what you said there about the

753

:

idea of the purpose of education

and so on and in Ireland, what I

754

:

there's this strange kind of I.

755

:

What the paradox in a way that every

school in Ireland is its own little

756

:

fiefdom, for want of a better word.

757

:

Like we're all, even though we're publicly

funded schools, we're all very private

758

:

and we're all our own insular buildings.

759

:

But at the same time, we've created

these structures and I'm in the country,

760

:

and maybe it's because we're a small

country where we have a number of,

761

:

like schemes and systems, which allow

us to have those big conversations.

762

:

We have this really good

network of education centers.

763

:

There's 10 of them in the country where

they, and their job is to bring teachers

764

:

together in their regions to discuss the

big questions and sometimes the small

765

:

questions, and to learn from each other.

766

:

And we call them t TPLs or tps.

767

:

Teach professional networks.

768

:

I see that as a really positive thing.

769

:

And I'm not sure I think sometimes we

take for granted those sort of things and

770

:

we're, there's lots of big, and we didn't,

I didn't want to, it was on our list

771

:

of things to talk about, but I decided

not to talk about it with you today.

772

:

But I'll just mention it.

773

:

There's huge discussions around

reading in Ireland at the moment with

774

:

and controversies, and we won't get

into it 'cause we don't have time.

775

:

But it's, I what I think is good.

776

:

Is that we're having the conversations

and we have the spaces to have

777

:

those conversations, and I'm not

sure if that's unusual or not.

778

:

And what I'd love to see, I suppose

maybe if we did, going back to the

779

:

Minister for Education, is there was

talk about having a citizens assembly.

780

:

I.

781

:

On the education system.

782

:

And there was a promise at government

level to do that in Ireland.

783

:

And sadly, that seems to have

disappeared, which is a little bit

784

:

disappointing to me because I think

we have a lot of big questions to

785

:

ask about the Irish education system,

really from its foundational levels.

786

:

And to have that to, if we had have

had that space, it would've been great.

787

:

So I'm really delighted with both

your answers to that question because.

788

:

It really feeds that thought,

I think, a little bit.

789

:

So thank you for that very much.

790

:

The last thing I suppose is really

I've really enjoyed this conversation

791

:

and I see we're already almost an

hour into the conversation, so we do

792

:

have to come to an end, but I think

what most teachers will be wondering.

793

:

Is, where am I going to get this guide?

794

:

Where am I going to

find all this research?

795

:

So maybe Paolo you might tell us and

Eliane where are we going to find this

796

:

research on reading and technology,

or even about pluralism pluralism.

797

:

Sorry.

798

:

Where's the best place teachers

can start to find that?

799

:

I think I, I.

800

:

That's the book.

801

:

Great.

802

:

On the IA website sir?

803

:

Paulina and Springer too.

804

:

Okay.

805

:

It's open Access book.

806

:

Yeah.

807

:

I think maybe that's the way how

I'm Googling is you'll put ia.

808

:

You will put digital.

809

:

Reading.

810

:

Yep.

811

:

If you have IA Springer Digital

reading, you find it's the first hit.

812

:

Ah, very good.

813

:

Your SEO is excellent.

814

:

That's what we needed.

815

:

Because that's the most that's the body.

816

:

That's what what we can offer.

817

:

And then if someone would

be kind enough to visit ia.

818

:

The, what is needed is to put education

and then cite and l because you need to

819

:

avoid this other IA that has E for energy.

820

:

Very good.

821

:

And that's very populated

on, on, on internet.

822

:

And within IA you can check

publications and there are dedicated

823

:

teacher publications for teachers.

824

:

And we have a couple of teacher

snippets on different topics.

825

:

That are not only about reading, but

also something about mathematics and

826

:

science, misconceptions on civic and

citizenship education through or false.

827

:

We, we were mentioning these

challenges online to evaluate whether

828

:

the information is reliable or not.

829

:

Not really.

830

:

So we have some findings.

831

:

From our IEL study in a form of

teacher snippet available there.

832

:

And one advantage in ia website on the

IA website is that we are adding all

833

:

national different language versions.

834

:

We can provide files and colleagues from

countries are translating publications.

835

:

And then they are using them of

course, and we can share them.

836

:

We actually a bit colleagues

that would like to read.

837

:

I've seen Irish teach snippets

of the digital reading book.

838

:

Oh, brilliant.

839

:

That's amazing.

840

:

Oh that's absolutely, that's great to know

that there's, that we are, we're involved.

841

:

I in a way in that.

842

:

Fantastic.

843

:

Elia.

844

:

Paula, it's been an absolute

pleasure speaking to both of you.

845

:

I've really enjoyed talking about,

I, I haven't been doing any academic

846

:

work myself for a few years and.

847

:

Started me thinking about going back

to the, back, to the the old academics.

848

:

Again, it's I suppose everyone a lot

of teachers I suppose were in, in

849

:

the world of education and you can

always keep learning more and more.

850

:

And I've really enjoyed, I.

851

:

Learning about your work and

what you're doing it's just

852

:

sounds absolutely fascinating.

853

:

I can't wait to see what's coming next.

854

:

It's really interesting.

855

:

I just want to finish by, thank you

both for taking the time to speak with

856

:

me and the very best luck with your

future work in the area of education.

857

:

Thank you.

858

:

It's been a pleasure.

859

:

So there you have it.

860

:

Really interesting discussion

there with Anne and Paula.

861

:

We were to talk about the dig reading on

digital devices and just around research

862

:

and everything, but I couldn't, I suppose

when I found out about the language

863

:

learning and pluralistic language and

things like that I couldn't resist.

864

:

But jump in with a couple of questions.

865

:

I hope that was of some use to,

particularly with the modern foreign

866

:

languages curriculum coming along.

867

:

But really I think in

general, just I feel.

868

:

I learned a lot about why

research is so important.

869

:

I will be sharing all the links that we

mentioned in the podcast as well as to the

870

:

research, as well as the snippets as, as

well as anything else that may be of use.

871

:

And there'll be pasted in the show notes.

872

:

Look, I'll leave it there for this time.

873

:

Thank you so much for listening.

874

:

I hope you enjoyed it, and

we'll catch you again very soon.

875

:

All the very best.

876

:

Bye-bye.

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis