Episode 53

The True Cost of Underfunding in Irish Primary Schools

In this episode, I explore the issue of underfunding in Irish primary schools, using the example of Sacred Heart Junior National School in Killinarden, Dublin, which announced it would operate remotely due to financial constraints. I delve into the history and structure of funding for primary schools, highlighting how the Department of Education's capitation grants have not kept pace with rising costs, such as electricity, gas, and wages. As usual I critique the patronage system and propose that the Department of Education should be directly responsible for the financial management of schools to address these ongoing challenges.

All shownotes and data available on: https://simonmlewis.medium.com/a-school-may-have-to-close-due-to-lack-of-funding-how-has-it-come-to-this-9392b568977b

Get my newsletter every fortnight to your inbox on: https://www.anseo.net/subscribe

  • 00:43 Case Study: Sacred Heart Junior National School
  • 03:01 Funding Challenges in Irish Primary Schools
  • 03:48 Detailed Analysis of School Funding
  • 06:31 Impact of Rising Costs on Schools
  • 09:29 Historical Context and Comparisons
  • 27:51 Proposed Solutions and Conclusion
Transcript
Speaker:

Hello.

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Hello.

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You are very welcome to If I were

the Minister for Education, a regular

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podcast where I delve into the world

of the Irish Primary Education System

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and let you know what I would do if

I were the Minister for education.

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This is Simon Lewis.

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If you are a fan of this podcast

or you'd like to hear more, you can

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subscribe to my fortnightly newsletter,

which goes through all the news about

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Irish primary education, and also

gives you some tips for your classroom.

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and you will be first to get

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Other than that, you can subscribe on

your favorite podcasting system as well.

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This week I want to talk about a

school, and specifically the school

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is the Sacred Heart Junior National

School in Ardin, in Tala, in Dublin.

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And I.

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They wrote to families in March to let

them know that due to a serious lack

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of funding, they would be forced to

operate remotely from the 1st of April.

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This was because of massive underfunding

for many years due to cuts from the

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Department of Education, I quote, and

they said they'd be no longer to be

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able to pay the basic bills unless it

received additional money in this episode.

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I'm going to ask a very simple question.

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How did it come to this?

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Hello.

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You're very welcome to If I

were the Minister for Education.

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It's Simon here, and I was fascinated

to hear about the Sacred Heart

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Junior National School in Ardin.

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Not just because of the topic in question.

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It's a school.

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It's not the school I

started my career in.

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It's the school next door to the

school I started my career in.

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But what I was most interested.

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That was how, this is not the first

primary school by any stretch of the

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imagination to be struggling with funding.

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It's probably just the first school

who've gone very public or certainly

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public enough that the media took heed.

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There were a number of special

schools a number of years ago that

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some people might remember who

were unable to pay their insurance

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bills, their insurance, quadrupled

like cept, I think in some cases.

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And they needed emergency

funding to keep going.

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But also there was a very small

story on Highland Radio where a

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principle said that they had to go.

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To their local church to

borrow 30,000 euro to pay the

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bills and then pay that back.

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At some point I think when the capitation

grant came through, I find that story

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absolutely wild considering that the

church owns that building in the first

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place and the school had to borrow.

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From the people that own the

building and pay it back.

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But that is not the point

of this particular episode.

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This particular episode is about the

lack of school funding and really.

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A lot of people do think and

possibly because the Department

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of Education say it, is that

they fully fund primary schools.

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So I thought I would take a dive

into the figures because many people

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know that during the recession,

the capitation grant, which is the

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main money that is used for bicycle

schools to pay their bills, that

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was cut from 200 euro per pupil.

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Per per pupil per year to, I

think it went down to as far

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as 170 euro per pupil per year.

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And it's just taken about almost a decade,

more than a decade, I think, for it to

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get back to 200 euro per pupil per day.

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But in the meantime, prices of

everything have gone up, I think

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the best place to start really is to

explain how primary schools are funded.

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I think it's probably the best place

to start because as I said people

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believe that primary schools are fully

funded by the Department of Education.

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So I think when people say that

schools are fully funded by

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the Department of Education, I

wonder what they mean by that.

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And I think what most people think.

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That the Department of

Education pay for everything.

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Now, some people also think the patron

bodies pay some money into schools,

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but that's absolutely not true.

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The only official money that comes

into schools is from the Department

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of Education and the C-P-S-M-A, which

is a Catholic primary management.

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Body they claimed that works at about

57% of what schools actually need to

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survive, to pay all of their bills.

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And I'm not sure what that figure is

today that stat was is was somewhere

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from in the middle of the 2010s.

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But the only other funding

that a school gets is from.

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Fundraising and the fundraising can

come from parents and the odd time

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they might win a competition that

gives money or maybe company sponsors

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something or gives some money to schools,

although that's very rare indeed.

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And I don't think I.

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I don't think it happens really at all.

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Most companies don't

give money to schools.

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I think they might give old computers

at best and maybe they might do some

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outreach programs where a group of people

will come and paint a classroom or help

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in a garden or something like that, or

maybe give classes in something or other.

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But essentially, when it comes down

to it, primary schools are officially

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only funded through fundraising and.

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The Department of Education grants and

the grants are the capitation grant,

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which I'm going to talk about now because

the capitation grant is the main grant

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that's used to pay for every single bill,

every single resource, almost everything.

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So for example, schools don't

get any extra money to pay

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for a cleaner of a school.

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A cleaner is not something that the

Department of Education pay for.

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Technically.

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They pay for a secretary and a cleaner,

and up until:

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a single grant, which didn't cover the

cost of a secretary or a caretaker.

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It was some money towards it.

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So whatever was spare went was

taken from the capitation grant.

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Currently in most, in the vast majority

of schools, secretaries are now paid by

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the Department of Education, but often

there is no money left for a caretaker

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or very little, even in very big schools.

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So the capitation grant

has to suck up that money.

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I.

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Just to put some numbers on this,

from about:

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which is recently enough, this

equated to 183 euro per pupil.

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So a 100 pupil schools entire budget

for all of their bills and some of

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their some of their costs for employees.

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So a cleaner and a caretaker or part of

that would've been 18,300 euro for a year.

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That's to pay all.

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The bills 18,300 Euro.

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It's not a lot of money at all, and

the Department of Education don't care.

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Neither do your patron body

for that matter, because they

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don't pay for the bills either.

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In case you were wondering as well, it

isn't the only money that comes into

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schools, so I think it's only fair

to say what the money is for those.

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You get a grant for standardized test

booklets every year, which basically

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pays for standardized test booklets.

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There's not much, if any

money spare from that.

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The wages of the school secretary are

now paid directly by the Department of

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Education that does there's no extras

there and it is a very, as I said, there's

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a very partial payment for any school.

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Lucky to have a.

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A character in some

cases, teachers and SNAs.

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And more recently, as I said,

most secretaries are paid directly

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by the Department of Education,

so these are things that the

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Department of Education pay for.

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Another thing that's fairly recent is

the school book grant, but that also

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only partially pays for the school books.

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Only partially.

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Remember, and this was cut after a one

the first year it came out in:

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It was 96 Euro per Child,

which sounds like a lot.

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For school books, but just remember

your average maths book costs 26 euro.

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That's a quarter of the entire budget.

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Your average religion book, by

the way, if you're in a Catholic

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school, costs about 20 euro.

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So about about a fifth of the entire cost.

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So you can see very quickly how 96

euro didn't cover everything, and the

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following year it was cut back to 80 euro.

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Which again doesn't cover all costs.

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Some schools that fall under

debt, that's the disa disadvantage

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disadvantaged school, get an extra grant.

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But this is only to be used

to tackle disadvantage.

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And finally, there are some very small

grants available for ICT, which are

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not guaranteed, and repairs minor

works as they're called every year.

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And neither of those are ever

a hundred percent guaranteed.

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Done.

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Most years they've gotten

the ICT grant just to.

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Let you know what it is, would

hardly buy you three laptops

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in an average size school.

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So again the Department of Education

will say they fund these things.

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They only partially

fund anything in effect.

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A 100 pupil school is only getting a.

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18 and a half Euro for

everything else that they need.

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And people wonder why schools seem to

be constantly fundraising and asking

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for voluntary contributions with a

heavy emphasis on the word voluntary.

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Just to give some context by coincidence

as I said, I worked in the school

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directly beside the Sacred Heart junior

National School from:

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I was there for a year before I went

to get qualified, funnily enough.

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And again, this has nothing

to do with this episode.

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When I got my job in 2001, there was

also a massive teacher shortage, and this

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was before the Teaching Council exists.

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So I had no trouble getting a job.

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But now that the teaching

Council exists, there's no way

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unqualified teachers get jobs.

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Oh, wait they are.

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There were 9,000 unqualified teachers

hired in primary schools in:

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Anyway, back to our funding.

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In 2001 to 2002, de capitation grant was

incredibly poultry at 105 euro per pupil.

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And that represented a 10

euro increase from:

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And in terms of inflation,

just to give that, because in

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2001 you could say 105 Euro.

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Oh my gosh.

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How can you now it's double that.

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But if you look at the, inflation.

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So basically in 2001, 105 Euro is roughly

the equivalent of 167 Euro roughly.

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And yes, that's obviously still very low.

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And, but costs were low as well.

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And I don't know relatively what

we were, know what that meant.

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And if we were look at a, if we looked

at a graph of capitation grants as well

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as their value adjusted for inflation

based on, see, I'm using the CSO figures

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and I have a link to what I'm doing.

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In the show notes, we can see

that this year's allocation is

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still nowhere near where we were.

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Even next year's allocation which

is coming up soon is, which is a 24

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Euro increase, still doesn't come

close to where we were in the past.

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I have this lovely graph on which I'll

share in the show notes, which shows

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the capitation grant and how it's

adjusted and adjusting it for inflation.

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We peaked at the in 2010 when

it came to the capitation

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grant and in 2025 we are still.

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Below that capitation grant and

in:

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Probably wasn't really enough.

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Maybe it was, but costs were so

much lower in:

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were in the depths of a recession.

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Nobody had any money, and

prices were all going down.

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And we had our capitation grant

at its highest level ever.

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And I can't, it was just about

two, it was 200 euro per child per

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year and adjusting for inflation.

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That worked out at about

nearly 250 euro per child.

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I think it's probably easier

to see this on a graph.

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But for those of you who are listening,

we are quite a distance away from where

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we were in 2000, between 2008 to 2011,

I think where things peaked and then

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went down we're roughly where we were

during the recession, I think, and

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again, when costs were much lower, but.

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I think the figures alone that show

up until the recession, there was a

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good progress in trying to reach a

level of sustainability for schools

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in terms of finances back in 2001.

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Even adjusting for for inflation,

we were still very low in terms of

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what we were doing to fund schools.

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And we saw basically during the recession,

it took a huge dip and we're still.

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We're still catching up to there.

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We're still not there, although we

are making a little bit of progress.

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We're still in and around

recessionary times.

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However, the stats I felt when I mean

it's very easy for me to do that.

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I just felt those stats were probably

a little bit meaningless be if we

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don't compare them to how the money

is supposed to be broken down and.

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I didn't expect to get an answer to the

question I asked which was I asked some

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schools my I couldn't use my school as the

to do this because my school has been, was

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a developing school from 2008 till 2023.

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So my bills, I.

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Weren't very static.

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So I couldn't really use 'em.

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So I asked any schools out there who

pretty static enrollment from:

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or any time between 2001 and 2023 if

they were happy to send me, the cost of

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heating, lighting, insurance, and so on.

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But I didn't get any replies, I had

to try and find somewhere where I

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could find examples of bills over

the last number of years, and I

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found them, to be honest with you.

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I found two sets of bills that two sets

of bills that people have in businesses

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over the last 20 odd years, and that

was your electricity and your gas.

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If there's data on average

bills or per kilowatt hour

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from the official SEAI website.

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And what the SESE and again I'm going

to show you if you're, if you obviously

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can't see this, so I'll try and

describe it, but you can go to the show.

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It's to see it.

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I've put it into a graph how much

the commercial electricity price per

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kilowatt hour was from 2007 to 2024.

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And if you look at that graph

it basically in:

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just before the the recession.

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It worked, it was around 12.

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Point seven one, something, around,

around that per cent, I think.

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And it was going up a little bit, then

the recession came along and it gradually

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it teetered around the same price all

the way until 20 22, 20 21, really?

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And then it just shot up.

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It's over double what it was in 2022.

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In the space of two years,

electricity prices, commercial

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electricity prices have doubled.

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They're starting to go down a little bit,

but they're still double where they were.

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And just taking that data alone, we can

compare to see how electricity costs

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per unit compared to the capitation

grant, because you would expect that.

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Electricity prices.

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So every school pays an electricity bill.

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You would expect the capitation grant to

change in the same way as the electricity

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bills would, because generally that's

probably not a bad way of doing things.

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And however, to analyze the impact

this had with the capitation grant.

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We have to make an assumption because

we, I needed to make a baseline.

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I didn't have a baseline, really.

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Sorry.

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This is maybe getting a little bit of

technical and I'm really sorry about it.

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You can ignore the next minute or so as

I'm explaining the maths around this.

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I was just going to, I have to make

an assumption because there's no way,

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other way of doing it, and it's not

a, it's not an important assumption.

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It doesn't mess things up.

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If I, it does, it's very arbitrary.

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I could, and it's essentially

how, what percentage of bills

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did electricity account for?

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I.

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That's what I need to ask, and I'm

just going to arbitrarily pick 10%.

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So 10% of our bills, it could have

been 5%, it could have been 20%.

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I'm just gonna say 10% of our capitation

grounds was going to be electricity.

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And that, and let's say that

is always going to be the case.

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' cause the interesting part will be

how that increases and decreases based

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on the capitation grant and hopefully

why we're seeing how schools are

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having these massive financial issues.

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Even me saying that electricity prices

have doubled in the last two or three

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years, should be enough to explain why.

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Because you won't be surprised that most

other bills have gone up significantly

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in the last two to three years.

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For the mathematicians and statisticians

out there who are wanting me to

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prove it, here is the explanation

in the geekiest language you can

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possibly ever hear and you can skip.

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I would say the next minute no,

let's say I'll do it in 30 seconds.

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So here's how we calculate.

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This is how I calculated it.

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God, this is gonna be so boring.

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I'm so sorry from the assumption.

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Of 10%.

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In 2007, we calculated the average

electricity consumption per

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pupil by dividing 10% of the 2007

grand by the:

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cut per cost per kilowatt hour.

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This gives us a constant kilowatt

hour value that represents

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a per pupil consumption.

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For subsequent years, we multiplied

this constant consumption by

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that year's cost per creative.

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This is so boring.

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Oh my gosh.

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Chachi PT did that, by the way.

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I didn't do it.

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I am a bit of a geek,

but I'm not that geeky.

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Anyway, finally, we divided this

cost by the capitation grant for that

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year and multiplied by a hundred to

express it as percentage of the grant.

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Anyway, more importantly than that geeky

language, here is the result, and again, I

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have a lovely graph in the show notes for

you to see, but essentially, if you can't

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see it, what you will notice is that.

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The so basically if we assume in 2007

your electricity bill was 10% based on the

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capitation grant in 2008 your electricity

went up to about 11% of your cost.

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But then in 2009, 2010, 2011, all

the way to:

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bill was less than that.

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In fact it went down 2010 when

we had the most capitation.

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It was around seven, or the equivalent

was about 7% of your electric,

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of your bills was on electricity.

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So your costs were way down.

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It went above 10% to get from 2013

to:

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mark until 2018 again went down.

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And then in 2021 it just

shot up to about 13%.

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And by 2022.

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Your bills had doubled so much that

over 20% of your bills were electricity.

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If we base 10% on in 2007.

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So the cost of electricity

has doubled in:

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It's gone down a little tiny bit to about

15%, but we're still saying that your

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bi your electricity bills effectively

are 50% more than they would've

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been in 2007, relatively speaking.

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And as we can clearly see.

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Even though things were fairly stable

from:

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I checked out gas as well,

just just for a comparison.

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And it's a very similar situation.

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Again, it, again, it o over doubled.

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In fact, gas went up from 10%

of your co total costs to 22%.

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So like more than doubled and

it's still in a shocking position.

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It's, I would love it.

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If I could find other official data

to be honest with you, because.

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I'd love to find a insurance.

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Insurance was the one I was really looking

for because I know anecdotally that

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insurance costs have doubled and maybe

Reed and probably even more in most cases.

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I definitely remember my insurance going

up one year from, I think it was about

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6,000 euro to over 14,000 euro in a year.

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I just couldn't believe it, it was mad.

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And I think a lot of schools are in that

situation, and somehow they had to suck

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this up and continue to suck this up.

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I don't know about, I'd say the

only thing that's relatively

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stable are your phone bills.

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I don't think I've noticed

them going up particularly.

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In the last couple of decades,

but wages have gone up as well.

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And I'll look at that in a minute

because there's another piece

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of data I need to go about.

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But if you are interested in

looking at other official, it's

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unofficial data in this case.

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So this is crowd sourced data, which

I was going to include, but I thought

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I'd just stick to the official data.

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There's a website called mBio.

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N-U-M-B-E-O and I think

you can register for free.

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And it gives you some good, a

good guideline on a number of

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items over the last 15 years.

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For example, it gives the cost of an

app, let's say in the last 15 to 20 years

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if the cost of renting a three bedroom

apartment in Dublin for the last 15 years.

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And I think they source their data

from people, a number of, from

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people and also official figures.

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So it's well worth looking at to

maybe even do some other comparisons.

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I just felt.

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People would accuse me of massaging

the figures if I didn't use official

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data or just picking things to suit

my agenda as as people like me can

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often be accused of, but however, on

electricity and gas prices zone, I think

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it's pretty clear what's happening.

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Prices of things I.

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Have gone up massively, and it's no

surprise to me whatsoever that this

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school can't afford to pay their bills

because bills have gone up so much, and

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I don't think they're alone in this.

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They're just the first ones

really to go so publicly about it.

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But the evidence suggests that.

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As I said, insurance costs

have gone up considerably.

370

:

In the last two and a half decades.

371

:

I found an article from 2004.

372

:

Now this is 2004.

373

:

So we're not talking about 2024,

:

374

:

costs were crippling primary schools.

375

:

And the minister for the time there

no Dempsey was told about it that they

376

:

are running up to six times higher.

377

:

That then the minister himself said

it's well worth looking at that article.

378

:

It's in the Irish Examiner from 2004.

379

:

And then in 2019, as I said,

several special schools had

380

:

to seek emergency funding.

381

:

And again, I have to, I, I put

a link to that article there.

382

:

15 special needs schools report,

difficulty meeting insurance premiums.

383

:

And again, I don't think

they were alone Really.

384

:

Special schools obviously were hit

much more than mainstream schools

385

:

because again, there's, there's so

much more that can go wrong in terms

386

:

of insurance cases in special schools

due to the nature of their work.

387

:

One school's insurance in the article,

I feel is need to, I need to say this

388

:

white rose from 3000 euro to over 26.

389

:

Thousand Euro from 2017 to 2019.

390

:

I wrote to an insurance company to ask

for some details regarding insurance

391

:

costs, but I was told back then that the

information would not be forthcoming.

392

:

I was doing it for a

different reason at the time.

393

:

I was trying to compare insurance

premiums between patron bodies.

394

:

And given that Allianz at the time is,

it was around when the Pope visited.

395

:

Art at Dublin at the time, and I

was really curious as to why Allianz

396

:

were sponsoring the event and

where was the link between Allianz

397

:

and the churches and insurance.

398

:

And of course as some people know,

Allianz used to be church in general.

399

:

They are responsible, Allianz

are responsible, I think for all,

400

:

if not all, most church building

insurances and church buildings.

401

:

The question I asked was, did.

402

:

Church run schools have lower insurance

than non-church run schools, and

403

:

they would not tell me which suffice.

404

:

I suppose I would tell you that of course,

that is the case, I don't think by much.

405

:

But anyway, again, not the point.

406

:

So I decided I'd look again.

407

:

At some other data that is absolutely,

definitely that exists out there.

408

:

And it was wages and I wanted to

look at cleaning staff because

409

:

that's something that has to

come out of the capitation grant.

410

:

And I, what I did was I

went with minimum wage.

411

:

Minimum wage was what I thought would be

the would be the fairest way to look at.

412

:

Whether the capitation grant is catching

up with the wages of cleaning staff or

413

:

other staff depending on who they are.

414

:

And it's interesting compare first of

all, the increase in the capitation

415

:

grant compared to the increase in

the wages of someone on minimum wage.

416

:

And if, again, sorry, I'm in the

sorry I'm on audio here, but you can

417

:

look at the show notes to see that.

418

:

And I suppose the most

interesting one for me in a way.

419

:

Is that the minimum wage goes up

far more than the capitation grant

420

:

goes up when it goes up, and even

when the capitation grows down, the

421

:

minimum wage can go up significantly.

422

:

And I.

423

:

Most interestingly, most recently the

capitation grants went up a little

424

:

bit for next year, but minimum wage

went up by about what went up hugely.

425

:

So I think on average since 2001,

there's been a 2% increase in the

426

:

capitation grant compared to a

9% increase in the minimum wage.

427

:

That's over four.

428

:

That's four and a half times

more so that means the schools

429

:

have to absorb the extra cost of.

430

:

Any ancillary staff that isn't

covered by the ancillary grants.

431

:

So with all this in mind, it's very clear

to me and I hope by now to you why this

432

:

school, the Sacred Heart Junior National

School in Ton has found themselves in

433

:

such financial trouble that they decided

they would write to parents to say that

434

:

they were going to close their doors.

435

:

And unless they received the money,

because they couldn't pay their bills,

436

:

and I would suggest that they aren't the

only school in Ireland in that situation.

437

:

At the beginning of the episode, I talked,

told you about the school in Donal that

438

:

had to borrow money off their own their

own local church who owned their building.

439

:

I spoke to you about the insurance

costs for some 15 special schools and.

440

:

Every survey after every survey

that is done from the National

441

:

Principals Forum is that school

funding is one of the biggest issues.

442

:

Workload is used to be the single biggest

issues for principals from ever since

443

:

I began being a principal and being and

being involved in adv advocacy work.

444

:

But in the last.

445

:

Five or maybe last three or four

years, I've noticed that whilst

446

:

workload is still terrible and it's

still unacceptable, it's funding,

447

:

school funding has become the number

one issue for primary school leaders.

448

:

Special education is there in

the top three, two, just in

449

:

case people were interested.

450

:

And I suppose what I'm showing you

now, really in a way, or I've been

451

:

telling you about in this podcast.

452

:

It may not be new information to you.

453

:

We've always had the anecdotal evidence.

454

:

We've always had the we've always

suspected that the capitation

455

:

grant is nowhere near enough.

456

:

And in fact, we've had a number

of studies from the representative

457

:

bodies who seem to go into this a

little bit without doing anything

458

:

about it about why we have a problem.

459

:

And here is just another bit

of data to add to the mix.

460

:

And I feel.

461

:

In my personal view, what I've given

really is showing how the capitation

462

:

grant isn't keeping up with the rates

of inflation, or even with the rates

463

:

of increases in all sorts of areas.

464

:

Whether that's inflation, whether

that's just the cost of energy,

465

:

whether it's the cost of living, the

cost of wages, and things like that.

466

:

So what's the solution?

467

:

I think you probably won't be surprised

to hear that my solution is rooted.

468

:

Patronage.

469

:

And it's yet again another

situation where the patronage

470

:

system is causing this issue.

471

:

And let me explain, for those of you who

are going no, here he goes again, this is

472

:

nothing to do with religion particularly.

473

:

This is just to do with the

system of patron patronage.

474

:

Forget religion, take religion out of it.

475

:

Just let's pretend for a moment that

every patron body that we have is

476

:

not religious and it's just, it.

477

:

They just are different businesses and

they, just bear with me on this one.

478

:

Okay.

479

:

I.

480

:

What, how the system works is

that the patron effectively

481

:

is told by the Department of

Education to manage their schools.

482

:

And the patron body gets some

volunteers to do the day-to-day

483

:

management of the schools, more or

less, which, but in reality is the

484

:

principal who does that sort of work.

485

:

But the board of management effectively

is responsible, so the Department

486

:

of Education aren't affected.

487

:

By the amount of money flowing at

schools, they give some money, but they

488

:

don't care whether it's enough or not.

489

:

In some ways, the patron

body they might care.

490

:

It doesn't really directly affect them.

491

:

What happens in schools,

because the patron body doesn't

492

:

have to suck up any of them.

493

:

Any of the financial problems of a school,

they get their lack of funding as well

494

:

from the Department of Education to exist.

495

:

They are paid they get grants

from the Department of Education.

496

:

The only thing I would say, I suppose

is that the most schools do pay a fee

497

:

to their patron body or management

body, depending on their patron.

498

:

But.

499

:

That's the only impact they might

have is one of their schools might

500

:

not be able to afford their bill.

501

:

But in, in reality, it's not

making a huge amount of difference.

502

:

So effectively the patron level of

this isn't particularly important.

503

:

And even if they do care, there

isn't very much they can do.

504

:

Like a patron body can't shut a

school down just for this, just,

505

:

they don't have the power to do that.

506

:

They don't have the power to threaten.

507

:

The Department of Education that

they're going to shut a school down.

508

:

So in a way, there are

a dead duck in this.

509

:

They don't really do anything.

510

:

Their only power really is the

hiring and firing of teachers.

511

:

Really, that's the only

thing they hold over.

512

:

A community.

513

:

One, they can hire and fire teachers

if they don't uphold their ethos and

514

:

they can change, they can dissolve a

board of management if they need to.

515

:

And I think they can obviously

divest or reconfigure a school.

516

:

I mean that, I'm saying they do nothing,

as it sounds like a mon python sketch

517

:

at this stage, but that's really

all they do, but very little of use.

518

:

They're just there as a kind of

a buffer between the Department

519

:

of Education and Schools.

520

:

But if the patron bodies didn't exist,

it would mean that the Department

521

:

of Education would be responsible

for the schools in all aspects.

522

:

And it's not like that

doesn't happen in Ireland.

523

:

Which is interesting.

524

:

Some of you may not remember this,

and some of you may not know this,

525

:

but there are nine primary schools

in Ireland whose patron body is

526

:

the Department of Education, and

I'm not talking about ETBs here.

527

:

The ETBs have decided to become

patron bodies themselves.

528

:

There are nine primary schools.

529

:

They're called the model schools

who are whose patron body is

530

:

the Minister for Education.

531

:

These schools have a history as they

all do, and you can listen back to my

532

:

podcast on model schools back, gosh, I

recorded it back before Covid, I'd say.

533

:

But just in a nutshell, they receive all,

they don't receive a capitation grant.

534

:

I don't think they receive

an ancillary grant either.

535

:

What they do is.

536

:

They send their bills directly to

the Minister for Education and the

537

:

Minister for Education pays those bills.

538

:

So that is very interesting

because it is a precedence.

539

:

It means it is being done, it

can be done, and it's interesting

540

:

why it isn't being done.

541

:

There is no reason why the

Department of Education can't.

542

:

Be responsible for the

funding of schools and for the

543

:

financial management of schools.

544

:

And while I know it's not while

I know there's a big difference

545

:

between doing it for nine schools

and doing it for over:

546

:

it's not something that's impossible.

547

:

It's not something that isn't within

their I suppose within their remit

548

:

or within what they're able to do.

549

:

And I think that's the we need to do this.

550

:

We need to move.

551

:

To a situation where the Department

of Education are paying the bills,

552

:

and you would find very quickly

the deals that would be done,

553

:

the things that happen in primary

schools that are absolutely shocking.

554

:

For example, primary schools have

to pay that on many things despite

555

:

the fact that they're completely

government fundings funded.

556

:

So that's two, two bits of VAT that

are paid rather than the one vat.

557

:

Things like that, stupid stuff that

we know is happening, for example.

558

:

With school books, the Department of

Education would fund all of the school

559

:

books, not just partially pay them.

560

:

The insurance company.

561

:

I can absolutely guarantee you that

insurance would change overnight if the

562

:

Department of Education were responsible

for paying for the insurance bills.

563

:

Every single decision, every single

thing affecting money would change

564

:

overnight if the Department of Education.

565

:

Basically funded, fully

funded primary schools.

566

:

And I would even suggest it might linger.

567

:

It might carry over into some other

areas which I often talk about on this

568

:

podcast, I've already mentioned it a

little bit so I won't go there again.

569

:

So there's my solution.

570

:

How it gets there mean I, I is

effectively back to my normal arguments.

571

:

We need to get rid of patron bodies.

572

:

I think, I dunno if I can if

you'll agree with me on that.

573

:

I hope it's a compelling

enough argument for you.

574

:

But in the meantime, we're going to

see more and more schools falling.

575

:

I.

576

:

Under huge financial pressure as the

cost of living goes up and the capitation

577

:

grant remains much lower than it needs

to be, even relatively speaking, and even

578

:

with inflation and all the rest of it.

579

:

There's just, I don't I don't think

this will be the last school to end up.

580

:

Financial difficulty.

581

:

I hope you've enjoyed this episode.

582

:

If you have, please subscribe

to the podcast by going to

583

:

your favorite podcasting app.

584

:

And clicking subscribe.

585

:

And please leave a review if you'd like.

586

:

It helps some people find it more easily.

587

:

And if you'd like to subscribe to my.

588

:

Newsletter, my fortnightly newsletter,

which not only tells you when the podcast

589

:

is coming out, but also gives a summary

of the last two weeks of the news in

590

:

primary education some stuff that you

might have missed and my own thoughts on

591

:

it, as well as my other passion, which is

ICT and education where I am giving free

592

:

courses to anyone who wants them on using

ai for loads of different teaching uses.

593

:

I would really recommend you

look at that and you can.

594

:

Get my my newsletter by going

to on shot.net/subscribe.

595

:

So that's it for me.

596

:

Thank you so much for listening.

597

:

All the very, very best.

598

:

Bye bye.

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis