The 50 Most Influential People in Education - Part 3

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Hello.

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You're welcome to if I were the

minister for education from anseo.net.

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The 50 most influential

people in education.

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Where are they now?

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Part three.

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Back in 2011.

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The Irish times published a list,

which they deemed to be the 50 most

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influential people in education.

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I've been profiling them now for a while,

and I've already done the top 10 numbers,

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11 to 20, and now it's time for numbers.

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21 to 30.

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Let's see, who's made the list and let

me know what you think on, anseo.net.

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Hello, hello.

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You're welcome to if I were the minister

for education, a podcast where I delve

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into the world of primary education and,

what I would do if I were the minister

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for education, this is Simon Lewis.

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I have been looking at an article from the

Irish times that was actually published

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way back in 2011 when I don't know

what the reason was, but they decided

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to profile the 50 most influential

people in education at that time.

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And 12 years on I'm looking at that

list and I'm going through each of

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the people that were on that list

and noticing different patterns and

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noticing different things about them.

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But most importantly is whether

they would still be influential

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today, 12 years later.

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So I'm going to go through

the list as I did last time.

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If you are interested, in

looking at numbers, one to 20,

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those are on the podcast list.

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You can see them on anseo.net.

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Or you can look at the show

notes on my medium profile,

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which is simonmlewis.medium.com.

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But everything you can do, everything

you need will be on, anseo.net.

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If you like this podcast or any previous

podcasts, you can subscribe to my

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newsletter out anseo.net/subscribe, where

you can find out my latest endeavors in

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the world of analyzing primary education.

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So let's get on to number 21.

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Who is Brian Mooney, a person who you

are probably familiar with, if you've

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any interest whatsoever in education,

because This man is still very much

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around and very much working away.

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I've actually been doing some work with

Brian for the last couple of years with

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the education matters, your book, where

he is the editor, but back in: 2011

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being hailed by the Irish times who he has

been writing for as hugely knowledgeable

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about all aspects of the education system.

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Brian is a guidance counselor, but

also a regular contributor to the

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media and from working with them.

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I know what the Irish time says is true.

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However, the article seemed to

imply he was being touted for

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an advisory role, similar to the

one that John Walsh had in: 2011

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And you can hear my.

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Thoughts on that a

couple of episodes back.

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But looking at his LinkedIn page

app, because this is where I found

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as some information about him.

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It didn't seem that

that actually happened.

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So, what do you make the list now?

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It's a tricky question to answer

because in a quiet way, I think

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he would, the education matters.

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Yearbook may not be a book that every

teacher in the country knows about.

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But it is by far the definitive

guide to the topics that all

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teachers do need to be aware about.

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And as the editor of that journal.

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I think he does.

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He certainly deserves.

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His place on the list because I still

think he has his finger on the pulse.

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Number 22.

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The standing committee

or executive of the ASTI.

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Now, if you are just seeing this now,

or if you're just reading this now,

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if you're just listening to this, now

you probably wonder what the heck this

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bunch of people are doing on the list.

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This group is one of two second

level equivalents of the CEC reps

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that you'd be used to seeing if

you're a primary school teacher.

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The ASTI are one of the three

teacher unions out there.

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And they are the ones that the media

portray as being in quotes up for a fight.

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And aren't we lucky to have them in this

new world where all of the unions have

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come together under the umbrella of the

Irish Congress of trade unions, the ICTU.

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Which essentially advertises itself

as giving workers a stronger voice.

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But in reality, I believe it weakens

individual unions influences.

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Now we've seen how the INTO

for example, cause that's the

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one that we be focusing on.

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We've seen how.

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It's voice has really become very

quiet in the last 10 years or so.

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And we sold this, especially after

the huge cuts during the recession

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back in 2008, 2009 and beyond.

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And the teaching unions inability to step

up and fight more strongly for teachers.

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When, when we were, when they were talking

for rights at the time, It was it was kind

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of interesting because the ICTU, you could

have brings all of the unions together.

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The I NTO seemed to be quite weak or had

became weakened because they weren't able

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to really fight for teachers, particularly

because they were kind of falling in

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line with general rights of the ICTU.

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And even when we vote something down

as teachers, if the other unions vote

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in favor, often our vote means nothing.

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And of all the teaching unions out

there, the AST I are a bit different.

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They dragged their heels

against the conservatism of the

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politically minded ICTU leaders.

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And they're often branded as pariahs

because they go against the grain.

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Unfortunately for them, they eventually

fall in line with the risk when the

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risk of members jumping over to other

second level unions becomes too great,

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which I think I've seen a little bit.

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If the, ASTI kind of do actually

threatened to go on strike.

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A lot of their members jump

ship and go to the TUI who are

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a little bit more conservative.

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And obviously being a numbers

game and you're, you're, you're

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only as good as your membership.

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The ASTI.

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Some had sometimes just have to bow

down to the pressure, I guess now.

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I mean, they may argue that.

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I think the ASTI though are the

closest we have to a functioning

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trade union in education, and we could

take a few leaves out of their book.

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I think the INTO and the TUI would

do well to maybe, and I know he's

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presume a lot of the other unions.

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Would do well to come away from this

ICTU cartel more assets, I suppose.

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That's probably the, I dunno

if that's the right word.

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But in my view, I think we, the

unions need to battle for themselves

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and for their own members.

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What I understand.

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Smaller unions would do

benefit from the ICTU.

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The bigger unions, find them,

find their voices kind of.

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I suppose, shut down so much

out or certainly quietens.

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Now, would they make the list now?

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The ASTI, what a primary level, their

main function is to show us what

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we could be if we had less apathy.

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And when it comes to any collective

bargaining or any campaigning, I feel the.

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I asked ASTI have always been

the strongest in terms of getting

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their voice into the media.

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And whether or not, I agree with

them a hundred percent of the time

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they've passion and, you know, that's

what I kind of admire about them.

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And whether that's enough to

make a list in: 2023

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INTO CEC reps is improbable.

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And the only reason to put

them here instead of the, I N

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T O will be to demonstrate how

insignificant the I N T O is.

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I don't think either would

make my list in: 2023

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Let's go add to number 23

in: 2023

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Sean Roland.

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At the Irish times asked if Sean Roland

future of Irish education in: 2011

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and in their very, very short profile

piece, they lauded him for creating

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a private teacher training college.

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And their main praise is that it will

cost the taxpayer no money, rather than

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it benefiting the education system.

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Now fast forward, another decade

or so on Hibernia college was sold

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to a textbook publishing company.

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And it's €9,000 tuition fee has

doubled and it's still making profits.

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Because that's all that matters

to the Irish times is profit.

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From my point of view.

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I can't say very much.

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I recorded an episode of the podcast

about private teacher training colleges,

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and I've never been more careful in my

life about what I had to say about them.

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And that should be enough to

tell you what you need to know.

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If you are interested in hearing my

thoughts and they are very guarded, you

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can listen to episode 53 of if I were the

minister for education, which was called

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scrap private teacher training colleges.

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I think that should sort of suffice now

would Sean Roland's make the list now?

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Well, once he sold Hibernia college, his

impact of primary education was no more.

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However, if this were a history of the

education system and the people that

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shaped it, He would certainly be up

there as one of the most influential.

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Number 24.

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Paul Rowe.

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I often refer to Paul Rowe.

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As my second dad or the uncle I never

had because I owe much of my life.

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To them to be perfectly honest to me.

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Paul took on the foundations set

by, Áine Hyland and the other

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founders of educate together.

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I'm built one of the most important

education systems in the country.

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He managed to infiltrate the

education system as an outsider

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with a simple core belief.

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Equality.

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Whatever small amount of diversity we have

in our education system, a primary level.

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I believe we owe a lot of it to him.

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He demonstrated that despite fierce

opposition from the status quo

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slowly, but surely, you can win

them over with a little bit of

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look at it in for good measure.

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In 2011, educate together was India sent.

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We finally had a minister for

education who saw the benefits

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of equality based education.

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And we had an acknowledgement from the

head of the Catholic church in Ireland.

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The things needed to change.

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Unfortunately, once we're required, left

the position of education and is partially

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moved away from its center left position.

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Paul found himself leading

educate together in a new

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reality where the economy became

more important than equality.

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The Castlebar divestment in 2016

was a massive turning point for me.

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I've put a link in the show notes to

an article on it shows a picture of

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the school house that educate together.

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We're supposed to add, move into

in Castlebar back in: 2016

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I called it a symbol of the

divestment process back then.

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Well, Paul did after that was, he

saw that, you know, the, there was

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a bit of a turn out, a bit of a

turning point that educate together

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weren't to be flavor of the month.

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With flavor of the, at all.

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And we also saw that the

community national schools were

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starting to be given schools.

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So the first one was in county

Kerry where educate together.

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Weren't even a part of the process.

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Paul switched his attention to expand and

educate together into the UK to ensure

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the organization remains sustainable.

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One of the things that educate together.

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I suppose all education providers rely on

his state funding and what Paul, I guess.

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I saw was they, he needed we needed

as a, as an organization, educate

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together needed to be sustainable.

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Even if the government were

stopped, the funding, which was

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always going to be a threat.

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If you didn't play ball.

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There's currently four educate together

schools in the Southwest of England.

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On a personal level.

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I adore Paul, like I would

a dad like a second dad.

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And from the minute we first spoke, when

I helped to organize a public meeting

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with a view to opening, educate together

school in Carlow, he's really been one of

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the most important figures in my career.

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What do you make the list today?

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Similarly to Sean

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rowlands when the history of the

education system is written, Paul wrote

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will be put near the top of the list.

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Even after retirement, he was hoping

to harness the power of technology

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to spread the mission of equality

and education internationally.

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And despite all the resistance from

the status quo, he still hasn't

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lost his faith in that vision.

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Number 25.

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The Finnish model.

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Back in 2011, the Finnish

miracle was all the rage.

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Thanks to good government policy of

actually funding education properly, and

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a charismatic thought leader called Dr.

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Pasi Sahlberg to be fair, it is his name.

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That should be the header,

not the Finnish model.

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Sahlberg address many

conferences, including the

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best IPPN conference in memory.

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As we all aspire to learn

lessons from the most successful

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education system in the world.

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Over a decade later while the fins

are no longer the best in the world

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in education, we never really did

learn from what they did well.

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In fact, the same year of this list,

we potentially put a nail in the coffin

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for the system, for the education

system, with the literacy and numeracy

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strategy, which forced to schools

to publish their standardized test

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results to the department of education.

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The minister at the time, insisted that

these results would not be used for

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anything other than statistical purposes.

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But in 2017, they began to be used

to allocate resources to schools.

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It is only a matter of time before

they are used for league tables.

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And rather than learning from the

Finns, we completely ignored them.

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And we are seeing the results

of that, particularly for

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children with additional needs.

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What the finished model

make the list today.

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I still think we've a lot to learn

from the finished education system.

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And in fact, I wrote a

podcast about it last year.

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It's called lessons from Finland

and it's in two parts and you

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can find that on, anseo.net.

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I have a, probably have Pasi

Sahlberg as a person on their

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list rather than the system.

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So rather than the Finnish model being

there, I would oppose Pasi Sahlberg

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and I would keep him on the list.

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Number 26.

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Professor Des Fitzgerald.

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The Irish times made a point of

saying he was the highest paid

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academic in Ireland in 2011.

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And according to my internet searching,

he was in the news for financial

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related reasons in more recent times.

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He had no role at all

in primary education.

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So what do you make the list now?

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As with many of these university-based

people on the list, he wouldn't then

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any wouldn't now, because this is

a primary school relation podcast.

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Let's move on Tom Collins.

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Number 27.

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I'll be honest.

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I'd never heard of this man.

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But his writeup in the

article was glowing.

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He was considered to be one of the

most popular people in education.

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And it's kind of weird since I've

written this article, I've heard a

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couple of people talking about him in St.

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Pat's and I had absolutely loved

him because he used to do some of

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the inspections for primary school

as a teacher training people.

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And it's kind of interesting because

I, as I said, I'd never heard the name

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before, but since then a couple of people

have gone about, oh God, Tom Collins.

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Oh, he was brilliant.

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He was absolutely brand new as a gentlemen

and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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I didn't train in St.

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Pats.

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So that's possibly why

I hadn't heard of him.

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But at this time of

writing, he had been moving.

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He was about to move to Bahrain,

but he's since returned.

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And he's now chair of the Dublin Institute

of technology DIT for the last 11 years.

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Would you make the list?

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No.

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I don't know if he would

know, because he's now not

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involved in primary education.

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He may have done, obviously may

have done back in: 2011

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don't think he would do now.

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Number 28, Peter Mullen.

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I must admit, I was kind of surprised

to see Peter's name on the list.

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But in another way.

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I wasn't to me, Peter represented

the last real trade unionists

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in the I N T O at a high level.

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I know there's lots of trade

unions now, but they're not just.

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The very high levels of Peter reached.

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He was never too busy to talk to

any member of the union, no matter

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where they were in the country.

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He edited the INTO's in touch magazine.

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Arguably the last time it was

relevant, he was a brilliant

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spokesperson for the union.

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And you always knew you could rely

on him to speak up for teachers.

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Surprisingly, there's very little

on the internet about Peter Muller

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now, and I believe he has retired.

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What do you make the list now?

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Unfortunately while I'm sure

Peter was replaced by another

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assistant general secretary.

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I couldn't really name them.

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For me that sums the union

up since Mullen's retirement.

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Do you need to move away from

having a number of well-known

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and charismatic leaders to a more

theocratic model, much like the

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rest of the representative bodies.

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And sadly for the union.

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And for teachers, there would be only

one union officer on the list these days.

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Number 29 Ferdinand Von Prondzynski.

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I mentioned earlier in the

list under Brian McGraith . Von

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Prondzynski had already moved

on to other pastures by: 2011

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Hence my very short profile

because would he make the list now?

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His influence in art and

disappeared fairly quickly.

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Once he left Ireland, he

wouldn't make the list today.

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I'm not even sure he deserved his place

back then, as he'd already moved on.

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Number 30 father Michael Drumm.

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In 2011, the Irish times believe

the father Michael Drumm was

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poised to become one of the most

recognizable spokesman for the church.

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Drumm was the first head of the

olic education partnership in: 2010

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However, it seems the Irish times

prediction was a little overstated.

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Search for Drumm contains very

few results in terms of the

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pluralism and patronage forum.

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: 00:18:11

He showed up in all searches as

being an opposition to divestments.

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: 00:18:15

And I have an example of that in my

show notes on simonmlewis.medium.com,

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but in 2016, seemingly out of

nowhere, he left off for Nigeria.

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: 00:18:26

And that's the last record I can find

on the internet of his whereabouts

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or his influence in any way.

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: 00:18:32

What do you make the list now?

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I don't think Drumm lived up to the

Irish times prediction, but it did

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: 00:18:37

seem to be a barrier to the divestment

process while he was in power.

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: 00:18:42

Which I guess gave him his

place on the list back then.

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: 00:18:45

The current head of the Catholic

education partnership is not a priest.

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: 00:18:49

Now it's Alan Hynes who holds the role.

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: 00:18:52

While it's early days, I think

he will have more influence he's

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: 00:18:56

a good communicator and comes

across reasonable in debate.

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: 00:18:59

We have indeed sparred on the

radio on a couple of occasions.

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: 00:19:04

So there we have.

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: 00:19:06

That is the third batch of

our top 50 influential people

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: 00:19:10

in education at pretty quick.

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: 00:19:12

Tour of the list only 20 minutes worth.

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: 00:19:16

Have a podcast.

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: 00:19:17

If you're going for a very

long walk, I deeply apologize.

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: 00:19:20

I usually go into a little bit more

detail, but we had a number of people on

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: 00:19:23

that list that really had no influence

on primary education at that time.

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: 00:19:28

If you are interested in learning more

about the people in this list, you can

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: 00:19:32

go to anseo.net or simonmlewis.medium.com

to find out more on the podcast.

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: 00:19:39

As I say is available.

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: 00:19:41

On all of those platforms that you like.

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: 00:19:43

I'm currently at the moment trying

to build up a bit of a mailing list.

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: 00:19:46

I mean, I'll use the extra time.

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: 00:19:48

I have maybe to tell you

of my plans for: 2024

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: 00:19:51

I am.

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: 00:19:52

I like many people who are

involved in education, I'm finding

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: 00:19:55

Twitter or X as it's known now.

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: 00:19:58

A more difficult place to be.

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: 00:20:00

I kind of find that.

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: 00:20:01

While I'm sending, you know, regular posts

and things like that, it's becoming quite

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: 00:20:05

a toxic place where, you know, people

particularly with you know, anonymous

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: 00:20:09

accounts are coming on and, and, and kind

of doing things that, you know, just.

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: 00:20:14

I mean, I don't really

have time to deal with.

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: 00:20:16

I'm not saying they upset

me in any particular way.

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: 00:20:18

But I found now I found myself

screenshotted with, you know

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: 00:20:23

Basically very personal kind of.

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: 00:20:26

Horrible things being said about me.

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: 00:20:28

There's been a couple of anti-Semitic.

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: 00:20:30

Kind of comments put about my profile

as someone just wrote the word nonce

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: 00:20:35

my name, which is just, you know,

like only that I don't, I don't care.

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: 00:20:39

'cause it's just rubbish.

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: 00:20:41

But it's just, it does become a

bit annoying really that you're

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: 00:20:45

putting stuff out on, on Twitter

or on the online or whatever it is.

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: 00:20:49

And they, and what I'm trying to

do, I suppose my, my goal isn't

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: 00:20:52

particularly to cause trouble.

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: 00:20:53

My goal isn't to be a nuisance.

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: 00:20:56

I am obviously admit.

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: 00:20:58

I want to disrupt the education system.

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: 00:21:00

So what I do find it's quite flat.

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: 00:21:02

I do think we do need to change the

system because we, because the church,

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: 00:21:06

the Catholic church in particular has far

too much influence in, in how it goes.

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: 00:21:10

I think we have an, we have a really good

education system in many ways, but the,

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: 00:21:14

the bits I'd say the 5%, the knots are

generally caused by this patronage model,

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: 00:21:20

which I think we need to get rid of.

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: 00:21:22

And the way we're going

about it, isn't working.

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: 00:21:24

So I don't know, I don't have a

platform other than social media,

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: 00:21:29

but I am finding Twitter becoming

less of a useful place to do that.

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: 00:21:35

And unfortunately for me, it's where

I invested all my eggs in a basket.

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: 00:21:39

And I have.

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: 00:21:40

Quite a lot of people who I suppose

use my, you know, kind of read

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: 00:21:45

my my posts as they're now known.

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: 00:21:48

And I really feel, I need to

move away from it somewhat.

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: 00:21:52

Because I can see it being taken over.

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: 00:21:54

Bye.

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: 00:21:55

People, I don't really want to be

associated with the, the anonymous

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: 00:21:59

accounts who are using the platform.

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: 00:22:01

To spread.

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: 00:22:02

I guess the type of rhetoric that.

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: 00:22:05

You know, started in the 1920s

and moved into the: 1930

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: 00:22:10

I am looking at that pattern and I

don't want it to be, I don't think

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: 00:22:13

these particular people are fascists

themselves, but they're getting swept

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: 00:22:17

up in the kind of fascist rhetoric.

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: 00:22:20

Of certain political parties who I fear

are growing and we could see them growing.

400

: 00:22:25

We can see us in, in a

holler in the Netherlands.

401

: 00:22:27

We can see it in a Hungary, we can

see it in various countries where, and

402

: 00:22:31

right-wing parties are starting to.

403

: 00:22:33

To take hold in places.

404

: 00:22:35

And I don't think Ireland

is any different to that.

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: 00:22:39

I guess I have to look at

different avenues where I can

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: 00:22:43

put my thoughts out there.

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: 00:22:44

And discuss them with people.

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: 00:22:46

I'm not necessarily.

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: 00:22:47

I'm definitely not saying my

thoughts are correct, but I do

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: 00:22:50

want to find a place where people.

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: 00:22:52

Can read them and disagree with them

or agree with them and kind of continue

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: 00:22:57

conversations in a more safe space.

413

: 00:22:59

Done a Twitter or X.

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: 00:23:01

And so if you are interested in doing

that I have started a newsletter.

415

: 00:23:06

It's only taken me 18 years to set

up this newsletter you can do that

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: 00:23:10

by going to anseo.net/subscribe.

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: 00:23:13

What I'm going to do is every week

or two, probably every couple of

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: 00:23:17

weeks anyway, because because of time

I'm going to publish a newsletter.

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: 00:23:21

It will let you know that my latest

podcast is ready to listen to.

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: 00:23:26

So your.

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: 00:23:27

You should be getting it from here.

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: 00:23:28

I'm currently saving lots of articles

that I find interesting about education.

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: 00:23:33

And my plan really for 2024 is

to take a few of those articles.

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: 00:23:37

And maybe discuss those on the

podcASTI 'm also going to be using.

425

: 00:23:43

I'm also going to be trying to

continue my journey with AI.

426

: 00:23:46

I'm really interested in artificial

intelligence and I've created a few bits

427

: 00:23:50

and pieces on a website called mash.Plus.

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: 00:23:53

And you can go over there to have a look

at those, but I want to share things that

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: 00:23:57

I've learned about artificial intelligence

and technology in general, because I think

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: 00:24:01

20 24, it's going to be an interesting

year for technology in education.

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: 00:24:05

So I'm kind of thinking of creating

a few articles and podcasts on

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: 00:24:09

technology and education as well.

433

: 00:24:11

So I'm another plan I have maybe for 2024

is to maybe use a bit more video given

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: 00:24:17

the, again, that artificial intelligence

will be able to give me the time.

435

: 00:24:20

Time to, you know, chop up the bits

that I'm going to use or not use.

436

: 00:24:24

I think the thing preventing me

from going on video in the past is

437

: 00:24:28

that I rely a lot on my show notes.

438

: 00:24:31

So me staring at a screen doing, saying

nothing isn't as going to be, isn't

439

: 00:24:36

going to be very useful, but I found

some software which uses artificial

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: 00:24:40

intelligence and it allows me to I

suppose, make my, make some videos

441

: 00:24:46

that will at least if not interesting.

442

: 00:24:48

They'll be a little bit more

interesting than looking at me,

443

: 00:24:51

looking at reading off a screen.

444

: 00:24:53

So that's kind of my plans in a nutshell.

445

: 00:24:56

I'll see how it goes.

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: 00:24:57

Obviously I'll be continuing these

normal podcasts where I delve

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: 00:25:01

into a subject in more detail.

448

: 00:25:03

I still have two more parts of this

one to do so the 50 most influential

449

: 00:25:08

people in education where they're

now parts four and five will be

450

: 00:25:11

coming up over the next few weeks.

451

: 00:25:13

But other than that I've no

more to say to you other than to

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: 00:25:16

wish you a very happy new year.

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: 00:25:18

For 2024.

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: 00:25:19

I hope you'll.

455

: 00:25:20

If you do enjoy this podcast or you want

to tell your teacher friends about it,

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: 00:25:23

please do share the anseo.net/subscribe

link, because I'd love to build up a bit

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: 00:25:28

of an audience for this until next time.

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: 00:25:30

Thanks for listening.

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: 00:25:31

And we'll see you then bye-bye.