Episode 44

Live Poetry Reading: The Children's School Lives Report 6

In this episode, I give a summary of the excellent Children's School Lives report (number 6!) which is focused on the curriculum and assessment. The document provides a comprehensive analysis of children's experiences in Irish primary schools. It focuses on how children engage with and perceive their school curriculum and assessment processes. The report details children's subject preferences, their learning experiences across different subjects, and teachers' experiences in teaching these subjects. It also covers the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on curriculum and assessment practices, and includes insights from principals, teachers, and parents on these topics.

Of particular interest to me are the subjects of Irish, Drama and Religion. What roles do they fulfil now?

Show notes available: https://simonmlewis.medium.com/childrens-school-lives-report-6-10633d73fdc5 or https://www.anseo.net

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello, you're welcome to If I Were the

Minister for Education from anseo.n et.

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Live poetry reading.

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The Children's School

Lives Report number six.

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Of all the studies that are made

about primary school education,

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for me, the Children's School

Lives Report is the best.

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of the best.

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Led by Jennifer Simmons and her team, they

explore different areas of the primary

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school lives of children in Ireland.

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My school has taken part in it over the

last few years and as have many other

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schools and while it's a good bit of

work, the results speak for themselves.

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It's so interesting.

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This is report number six and it

delves into the meat and bones of

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what we do in primary schools, namely.

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curriculum and assessment.

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I'm going to delve through this

report as a live poetry reading and

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see what you think for yourselves.

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Hello, hello.

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You are very welcome to If I Were the

Minister for Education from onshaw.

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net.

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This is Simon Lewis.

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I would do if I were the minister for

education is a regular podcast where

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I explore an area of the Irish primary

education system and say what I would

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do if I were the minister for education.

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You can subscribe to this podcast

on any of your favorite podcasting

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platforms and all the show notes

are available on Simon M Lewis.

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medium.

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com or you can go to anseo.

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net directly for further

thoughts and opinion.

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This is a live poetry reading.

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I call them this because what I do is

I look through a document or a report

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that's been written by a particular

agency, in this case the Children's

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School Lives and I summarize all of the.

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very long pages into a

short amount of time.

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I'll see how quickly I get through

this one because there's about 80

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pages of fantastic information.

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This is probably one of the hardest

documents that I summarized because

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it's There's very little fluff.

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In fact, there's no fluff, unlike some of

the Department of Education's circulars.

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This is all good stuff.

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As I said, this report is about

the meat and bones of what we do.

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It's the sixth in the series of Children's

School Lives reports, and they've

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always been very, very interesting.

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And this one in particular,

for me is of interest.

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So I've had a look at the

summary and some of the findings.

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And when it comes to the curriculum, I

was kind of I suppose I'm going to be

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looking out for the things that teachers

and children and, and even parents

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find important and not important, what

subjects we hold a lot of value to, and

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is it bad news for some other subject,

for some of those subjects as you know,

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on this podcast, I often talk about

what subject or subjects are important.

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of I suppose extinction

or at least under threat.

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And if they should or shouldn't be

we've talked about should drama be

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a separate subject in the curriculum

in this podcast in the past.

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And we've always obviously talked about

religion as a, as a subject and should.

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We also look at the Irish language

and how much emphasis we put in that.

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Obviously, I'm not saying it

shouldn't be taught, but again,

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what are the thoughts on it?

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So I'm kind of hoping as I read

through this where do those three

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subjects in particular land?

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I also think we possibly teach a lot

of literacy and a lot of numeracy,

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probably more than we should.

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So again, I'm looking forward to

seeing what the findings are there.

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And obviously.

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Every other subject in between.

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I know there's a lot of if you

listen to the media, one of

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the things they focus on is P.

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E., so I wonder what the place is there.

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So look, there's only wondering

before I actually get into

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the to the actual document.

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I have it open here in front of me.

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And for those of you who've listened

to this podcast, any of my live poetry

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readings you'll have to forgive my

lack of eloquence as I'm reading it

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really, I suppose, for the first time.

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And I probably may skim over things

that are important because, as I said,

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there are over, I think it's, well, I'm

just having a look here at the index.

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Yeah, there are over 70 pages.

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In the document, and obviously I want to

read this as quickly as possible and get

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it done in well under an hour if I can.

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So I am going to skip over the

introductions generally introductions

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happen to, you know, tend to be written

by you know, some I suppose person high

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up in this case Arlene Foster is the

person who's doing the introduction,

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who'll probably say nice things.

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I can't imagine in an introduction

to a document she'd say

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anything horrible about it.

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But I wouldn't say there's

anything particularly useful.

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Moving on already we're going

to look at the key findings.

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I suppose what I like about the CSL

document is they summarize may a

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lot of basically the whole document

in a few pages and it may give us a

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bit of a taster of what's to come.

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So the key findings really, I suppose,

let's get into them, are that most

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children starting primary school enjoy

reading and writing as well as maths and

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their interest in those subjects remain

as they progress into second class.

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By fourth class almost all

children are interested in P.

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E.

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and art and less than half

are interested in Irish.

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That is the first piece of bad

news for the Irish language.

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Reading and writing as well as history,

geography and science are also interesting

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subjects for most of the children.

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Children's interest in subjects

is reflected in their attitudes

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and engagement towards them.

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So P.

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E., history, geography and science

are subjects that are interested

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in and feel happy when learning.

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Maths is the subject children feel most

confused and bored with when learning.

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That's interesting.

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However, it's a subject commonly

chosen as their favorite.

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as well.

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So the bit of confusion there I'd like to,

I'd probably delve into that a little bit.

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Children also reported feeling bored when

learning reading and writing, but unlike

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maths, they were not necessarily confused.

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That's kind of interesting.

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And I think and I do know this is

divided into different age groups so

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we will look at why that might be.

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There's loads of gosh, I, I'm

just looking here that they've

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a lot of these summaries.

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So there's going to be a bit.

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Big a big lot of stuff here.

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Let me see.

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Yeah, their experience of different

subjects are strongly connected to their

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perceptions of their accomplishment.

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That's interesting.

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But their enjoyment seems to decline

as they progress through primary

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school, partially what they perceive

as repetitive and overloaded subjects.

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That's interesting.

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Children's enjoyment of subjects

connected to child centered pedagogies.

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Good I'm just having a look here.

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There is an alignment between the

subjects children felt were important

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in their everyday lives and those

that, where teachers spent most of the

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recommended, more of the recommended time.

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That's kind of interesting.

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Whereas most teachers enjoyed

teaching English, Maths and S E S

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E, the least enjoyed subjects by

teachers were religious education.

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Drama, interesting.

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PE, also interesting.

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And music, also interesting.

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I don't think surprisingly,

though, either.

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That's kind of interesting.

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We'll get into that.

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It also talks about SESE.

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Let me see.

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SESE indicated a high willingness

among teachers in their schools

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to teach to the curriculum.

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But there's some Uncertainty around

this understanding of and success

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in implementing curricular goals.

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I don't quite know what that means.

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I'll be interested in finding that.

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Principals who are in full time

admin roles spend less time on

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curriculum related tasks than those

who are in teaching principal roles.

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So that makes a lot of sense

because teaching principals have

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to teach for for all of the day.

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Admin principals don't.

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I mean, maybe that wasn't the point.

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I'm going to skip over the assessment

things because there's, there's a lot

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there in the summary, but I don't, I,

I, I'm less interested in assessment

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than I am with the curriculum.

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But because, and I will

come back to it later.

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Talking about, then, out of

school learning, so during

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so they talk about homework.

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Homework is something

that really interests me.

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I would argue that homework is something

that we need to, refocus on and look at.

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I've spoken about homework

before on the podcast.

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Looking here, they said it's not

generally well regarded by children.

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However, parents view it as an indicator

of how children were progressing in

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school which is kind of interesting.

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Parents of younger children express strong

preferences for homework as important.

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That has waned a little

bit as they get older.

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That's interesting and I wonder why.

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I might explore that a little later.

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I suppose I'll have to

read a little bit more.

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Irish and maths were subjects

identified as representing a challenge

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for parents when supporting their

children doing their homework.

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That's kind of interesting

too and, and not surprising.

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Strongly connected to

parents views on assessment.

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Positive relations between families

and school communities are regarded

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as a key element to support

children's engagement with homework.

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Okay, I'm not quite sure what that

means, but we'll find out about that.

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Then they go into COVID

19 and the effect of that.

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I might go into that.

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I'll see how time goes later on.

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I'm, I'm, I think we may have fatigue

from COVID 19, but I suppose there

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are, I suppose we'll touch on it.

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I think we'll see how much time

we have, because as I said, we're

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already nearly 10 minutes into this

podcast and we haven't even started.

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I'm going to skip by

all who they surveyed.

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You can take it.

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If you're interested, I'll put

the document in the show notes.

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But it just basically says which

schools, how many schools they

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went, what types of schools they

went into, and that kind of thing.

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It also goes into the day in the life

of children who drew pictures and

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talked about their experience of school.

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You'll know, I, I, I was struck by the

amount of books that were in the pictures.

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Which is, which is kind

of interesting in itself.

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And I suppose a bit disappointing.

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So children talked

about what they learned.

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The Good thing is that most senior

infances says they, they love

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learning reading and writing and they

love maths and they're interested

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in them, which is always good.

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You won't be surprised to hear

their favorite subject is P.

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E.

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and art from that cohort of second class.

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They also love SESE.

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But their least favorite subject,

and very interestingly, they

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really, really dislike Irish.

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Which is, which is odd.

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And maths comes second in

terms of what they dislike.

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But maths, there's a big gap

between the likes and not

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likes when it comes to Irish.

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Irish is really, seems to be hated.

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And I think we need to maybe look

at that in a bit more detail.

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And I, I just want to keep

reading before I do that.

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Irish comes top of being not

interested in by a long shot as

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well as the children get older.

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Drama actually comes second,

which is really interesting.

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They don't like drama in fourth class.

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That's really interesting too.

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The favourite subject is P.

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E.

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and art as well.

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Again, not surprising when

you ask children what their

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favourite subjects are.

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P.

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E.

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and art, I, I think are

always top of the list.

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wHen you come to fifth class again, it

looks like they're bored by Irish, um,

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they're confused by Irish, and again,

very, very low down in interested,

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you know, they're interested in P.

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E., they're happy in P.

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E., they're interested in art,

they're interested in you know,

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they're happy in art and It's kind

of interesting, you know, the boredom

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factor is very high in Irish and maths.

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So, yeah, I don't know.

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I don't know what that says, but

it's kind of like it's definitely

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worth looking into a little bit

more, and I think I will do that.

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I'm going to skip through the quotes.

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There's loads of quotes

from children there and very

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interesting kind of stuff there.

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Who are we moving on to next?

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Children's experience of

learning different subjects.

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How useful these things are in their life.

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And P.

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E.

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is top of that list.

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Maths is second.

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Despite finding it challenging

and not liking it, they do

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find it very, very important.

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But you scroll all the way

down to the bottom, they do not

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find Irish extremely important.

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And that's, that's kind

of interesting in itself.

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Anyway, the percentages but, you

know, but they find music more

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important than they do Irish.

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They find art more important

than they find Irish.

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They find SESC much more

important than they find Irish.

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English, Maths and, as I said, PE.

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Really interesting children's

perceptions at a very young age

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to have that attitude to Irish.

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You wonder where that comes from.

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You know and, and Again, I'm

not making any comment on this.

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You know, we talk about we need to

hear children's voices more often.

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We need to hear what they have to say.

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But when you look at the

results there, Irish and PE are

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the most important subjects.

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Irish is the least important.

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What conclusions do we draw from this?

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Are children trustworthy

sources of information?

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Is a, is a, is a question.

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I think they are by the

way, just for the record.

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We have to take, obviously, I feel we have

to take into account what children say.

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But is there some skewing there?

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Those who would be a big Gaeilgeoirí

out there may look at that, these

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results and go, Ugh, sure children

don't know what they're talking about.

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But I don't know.

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I don't know.

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It's interesting.

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It's, it's very interesting, I

just think, to ask those questions.

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Let's move on to the teachers

experience of what they teach.

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And what they teach more than

recommended from the curriculum or

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less than what they what's recommended.

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And I, I wasn't surprised to see that

English in English and literacy generally

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is taught way more than is recommended.

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We do, I think, Our results

in PISA are reflected by this.

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I think we actually over teach literacy

in our schools from what I can see.

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And I think that's why

we do so well in it.

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I also see that maths is second in

that regard for what we over teach.

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And I'm not surprised by that either.

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What I see interesting there is PE is

actually taught exactly as recommended.

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I think teachers are scared now

not to teach because there's so

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much emphasis on PE from parents.

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If you listen to any, I always think that

radio stations are the voice of parents

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because the people who are researchers

and people who present on it, when they

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talk about school, they always talk

about it from a parent point of view.

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They're not very interested in

things, academics And, and if you

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ever, if you talk, if you looked into

the, I suppose, how much do radio,

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radio presenters talk about school

and what do they talk about most?

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It's the amount of time you spend on P.

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E.

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And I think as a result of that,

we actually even though I would

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argue, and I think teachers would

generally argue that more P.

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E.

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is, while it might be fine and everything

else, there's a lot of responsibility

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that needs to be put on parents and

home life and outside of school time

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for, for increasing the amount of

physical exercise that children do.

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So I think schools in a way, and I wasn't

surprised to see that, you know, of all

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the results there when it comes to P.

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E.

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Teachers do that.

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Exactly as recommended, not because

they might see it as important, not

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because they think they should do

more or less of it, but I think it's

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because of the media focus on it.

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It's very interesting as well that they

spend less time on discretionary time for

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those of you who are interested in that.

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They spend exactly, in, in, in almost

every subject there, SPHE, SCSE

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and the arts, they spend, most of

them spend exactly as recommended.

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But this is the big one for me

anyway, religion, 67 percent of them.

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Teach less than recommended.

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Now, I'm not surprised to read that.

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If I was the patron of a school, I would

be looking at that as very worrying.

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If I'm trying to uphold an ethos.

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0 percent teach it more than

recommended, which I think is

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really, which is interesting.

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I also think it's not true

particularly in second class.

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I think it is taught more than

recommended in second class.

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But you know, I'm not I, I think

some people forget that when they're

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teaching sacramental preparation,

they are teaching religious

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instruction or religious education.

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I think some of them say, oh, we're

integrating that into our art and our PE

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and our science and our old or whatever.

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I wouldn't say science.

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But certainly drama and the

arts, that kind of stuff but

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it is religious education.

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So, I'm not quite sure if that 0 percent

is accurate, because, you know, look, a

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lot of these things are self reporting.

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But I was interested, you know I'm

probably most interested in that

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they teach religious education.

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Two thirds of teachers teach

religion less than recommended.

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And I, I, I don't know, I mean, that to

me says quite a lot, that even if you

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do go to a Catholic school, there seems

to be this Unwritten agreement that

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nobody's taking it really that seriously.

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You know, actually when I'm talking about

this on online on Twitter or X I often

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find that teachers in Catholic schools

sort of argue against me and say, but the

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reality is Simon, the reality is Simon,

we don't really teach that much religion.

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Which is of no which is of no benefit to

me, who, who isn't able to teach in these

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faith based schools, as they like to be

called now, I don't like that term either,

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these denominational schools, because

they can, even though the teachers within

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them aren't taking it very seriously, in

order to get a job there, they have to

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pretend they take it seriously, and then

it's all a bit of a game, and I don't

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think we need, I don't think we should

have an education system based on that.

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A game where people pretend to

be religious to get a job and

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then effectively ignore, you

know, once they're in, they, they

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don't take it seriously at all.

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It's, you know, we're, you know, the

consequences of that and the impact of

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that is that we don't, we have a lot of

teachers that can't get into the system

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and don't get into the system because

They can't pretend to be religious.

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And it's no, it's, it's no consolation

to me when I hear these teachers and

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Catholics saying, well, you know,

we don't really take it seriously.

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I'm not sure if we even

teach it once a week.

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We're lucky.

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It's interesting.

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And there it is in in a, in a

proper research study to say.

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Yep, that is factual.

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Let's move on.

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Spending so in, in older classes

it's kind of interesting as well.

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And we're talking about, yeah,

so actually, do you know what?

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I, I was wrong there when I said 0

percent I wouldn't say is actually true

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because that was only junior infants.

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This is cohort A junior infant teachers.

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As they get older they do actually,

there is some admission, now

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very little, that they spend

more time on religious education.

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But overall they spend less than is

recommended in in that, in those subjects.

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And maths and English are taught

more than they should be as well.

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So, interesting.

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Conclusions there and in terms of planning

teachers spend a lot of time planning.

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In the average seems to be two to

three hours a week in planning.

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Is that right?

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Yeah, I'm kind of, I'm kind of

surprised that it's only that.

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I would have thought teachers

would spend more than two to

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three hours a week on planning.

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But there you go.

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They're admitting it there.

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Which is kind of interesting.

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It's, it's actually the most

interesting thing for me there is

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in junior infants spend more, more

than three hours a week on planning.

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First class very few spend more

than three hours and in fifth

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class it goes back up a little bit.

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That's kind of interesting.

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I don't, I don't really know

what to conclude from that.

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Just that I'm surprised That it's so low.

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I, I remember when I was teaching I would

have spent, yeah, I would definitely

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have spent four hours, four or four

to five hours a week on planning and,

388

:

and anyway it's, it's interesting.

389

:

Looking at teachers responses

to enjoying particular subjects.

390

:

This is really interesting.

391

:

Because, well, it's interesting

to me, they love teaching English.

392

:

They adore teaching English,

adore teaching SASE, SESE.

393

:

They generally like teaching maths.

394

:

I was kind of surprised because I,

I remember when I used to lecture in

395

:

Highburnia College, I always asked,

well, the first question I asked

396

:

them, I went off script quite a bit.

397

:

Maybe that's why I didn't,

don't work for them anymore.

398

:

But the first question I always ask

them is, who loves maths in here?

399

:

And very few people put up their hand.

400

:

But they obviously get to love it.

401

:

Visual arts, they love

teaching visual arts.

402

:

That's interesting.

403

:

Children love doing it.

404

:

Teachers love doing it.

405

:

That's good.

406

:

They love teaching Irish in general.

407

:

Irish is, is, is, is

quite a high percentage.

408

:

And then it kind of goes

down quite a bit to music.

409

:

SPHE is and PE all faltering

around, you know, between 66 and

410

:

78 percent of, of enjoying a lot.

411

:

And then the last.

412

:

You've got drama and you'll

never guess religious education.

413

:

Only less than half of teachers

enjoy teaching religion.

414

:

And when you look at the opposite of

what they don't enjoy religious education

415

:

is the highest by, by a long shot.

416

:

And that's up to 30%, so 29%, 30%.

417

:

So three in 10 teachers do

not enjoy teaching religion.

418

:

Now again, you know, this is all,

I suppose in some ways music to my

419

:

ears because it's, I suspected it

I, I, obviously I have a an agenda

420

:

in my life where I, I think there,

there is absolutely no role for

421

:

the church in the education system.

422

:

I do believe, sorry, I should also

add that I, well, I, I don't, I don't

423

:

think, see what they say religious

education is faith formation when

424

:

they're doing these kind of things.

425

:

Religious education sounds like

we're teaching about religions.

426

:

It's not in the vast majority of

schools for those of you who don't.

427

:

You somehow don't know this but basically,

I think an ethical education program where

428

:

you teach about religions or learn from

religion is, is, is much more useful,

429

:

but in the case of this survey, they're,

they're asking the study, they're, they're

430

:

asking people who teach in denominational

schools in the main, so it's not so it's

431

:

kind of, it's annoying for me in some

ways because I know that most teachers

432

:

don't you know, most, most teachers

Don't teach it as much as they should.

433

:

And then it's annoying to see

that a lot of them don't enjoy it.

434

:

In fact less than half of

them enjoy teaching religion.

435

:

And yet, 90 percent of our

schools insist on it happening.

436

:

It's just, it's just a little bit I

suppose it's a bit, it's, it's, it's

437

:

kind of annoying and that's at the

junior end at the senior end of things,

438

:

it's, it's very similar except that

funnily enough, drama is the least

439

:

favorite subject of teachers in that

case, but it is very, very close to

440

:

religious education as well so really

kind of Yeah, kind of, as I said,

441

:

there's, there's very little difference.

442

:

Irish teaching, interestingly,

goes down in the senior classes for

443

:

levels of enjoyment for teachers,

which is kind of interesting, too.

444

:

And again, we'd look at that.

445

:

I'm looking really at, I suppose, there's

a pattern emerging here, as I said in

446

:

the introduction, about Irish Drama and

religion as subjects that are really,

447

:

you know, interesting in this study.

448

:

Kind of interesting to see how P.

449

:

E.

450

:

isn't enjoyed as much in

senior classes as well.

451

:

Another subject that is of interest to me.

452

:

And then literacy and numeracy.

453

:

So, maths and English I suppose.

454

:

Remaining high as, as interest levels and

being taught more than they should be, and

455

:

how that kind of translates into results

let's say in things like Pisa where we,

456

:

where we tend to do very, very well.

457

:

And I'm, I'm, I, I'm not sure

what, what the, what that's about.

458

:

They do go on about after the pandemic,

about the things that teachers

459

:

have to focus on and emotional.

460

:

It's interesting that emotional

regulation in younger classes and social.

461

:

And relationship skills in senior classes,

which is really, really interesting.

462

:

Even over literacy and numeracy in

both cases they numeracy was seen as

463

:

a needed prioritization over literacy.

464

:

I'm coming second and third in both

younger classes and older classes and

465

:

the thing that people felt least Were

creative arts and music and science

466

:

literature the scientific literacy as most

important Which is kind of interesting

467

:

and then managing behavior in class,

which is kind of was, was quite low

468

:

as well, which might surprise people.

469

:

Maybe it doesn't.

470

:

I, I, I'm not quite sure.

471

:

I just saw that there.

472

:

The principals had their own kind of

say in this, and it's kind of unusual.

473

:

They, they were quite high

in all their responses.

474

:

I, I, I don't know if you can gain

anything from it, so I'm going to kind

475

:

of skip by it, because we've, we've

We've a lot to cover in this to be honest

476

:

with you, I've had a look I had a, I

have to admit, I cheated a little bit.

477

:

I did have a brief skim of this

document before I looked into it and

478

:

I didn't find the principal section

that, that useful in terms of that.

479

:

So we'll move on to assessment

where, how many, where are we?

480

:

We're about 25 minutes into the

podcast, and as I said, we need to

481

:

move on to the next bit, if we're

going to get finished in an hour.

482

:

Assessment.

483

:

is interesting because they ask children

about day, how they assess themselves

484

:

and they ask them about their smartness.

485

:

How smart do they think they are?

486

:

Do they think they're very smart?

487

:

And it's interesting to see that

most children think they are smart 75

488

:

percent of them which is very good.

489

:

And I'm very nice to see

that because it is true.

490

:

juNior infants believe they

are good at their schoolwork.

491

:

76 percent of them believe that.

492

:

Emphatically.

493

:

In fact, if you just take on yes

and then yes with an exclamation

494

:

mark nearly 90 percent of them

think they are good at schoolwork.

495

:

It's sad to see like 3 percent of

junior infants think emphatically

496

:

they're not good at schoolwork,

which is you know, I know it's a

497

:

low percentage, but sad to see that.

498

:

Even 3 percent believe that do whether

the teacher thinks they're smart

499

:

is fairly similar which is good.

500

:

And then when they talk about

assessment, it's kind of interesting.

501

:

A worry seems to be a big word

that comes up a lot or it's hard,

502

:

which is interesting as well.

503

:

I mean, this is when they're talking about

assessments, tests, and things like that.

504

:

And, kind of interesting that they're the

biggest anxiety or if that's a word really

505

:

or the biggest worry is if other people

see their Scores or people see the results

506

:

or the marks they get that seems to be

a bit of a worry Even though they don't

507

:

believe that that happens, which is kind

of strange and and interesting the results

508

:

for older kids, you know, are a little,

it's very hard to make anything from it.

509

:

It's sort of very even about whether

they're, whether they're worried or

510

:

not worried or sometimes worried.

511

:

It's sort of even across the

board, which I suppose makes sense.

512

:

When you talk about parents, parents

Seem to be, seem to use assessment

513

:

differently in a way they seem to

think they there's a couple of opinions

514

:

that kind of came up really in a way.

515

:

There's a lot, a lot of quotes ranging

from, I think it's terrible to put

516

:

children under such pressure when

it comes to tests, which is kind

517

:

of interesting in itself, but then

also to the exact opposite, which

518

:

is I find them very, very useful.

519

:

And one thing that really annoyed me

as a sentence in here is that dictation

520

:

and spelling tests and tables tests are

still ubiquitous in primary schools.

521

:

I, I, it's just, I mean, I, I just

don't understand why this, this

522

:

happens still in primary schools.

523

:

But I like, I'd like to think

that, I mean, given that it was

524

:

mentioned in the parent section,

it's, it, there's an expectation.

525

:

I think we're guilty as teachers of not.

526

:

doing best practice because

we're trying to appease parents

527

:

who like these sort of things.

528

:

And, you know, this, this kind of

mad, in other words, parents even

529

:

discussed that some pressure is useful

to encourage children to progress.

530

:

You know, it's really falls flat in

the face of, of actually good practice.

531

:

And Yeah, it's, it's kind of a bit

strange that this scene is important.

532

:

4th, 5th and 6th class should

really be drumming down the basics,

533

:

which is a bit weird, as a kind of

a, as a statement from a parent.

534

:

Yeah, I don't know.

535

:

I don't know.

536

:

I think it's actually, I'm not going

to read through it because I don't

537

:

want to waste too much time on it.

538

:

But you get to see, what I, my conclusion

on it is parents are, you know, seem to be

539

:

really focused either on, you know, They

think it's good that we drum information

540

:

into kids, even though that absolutely

flies in the face of good research.

541

:

Or they don't like it

because they don't have time.

542

:

Oh, my husband works full

time and I work full time.

543

:

So we find it hard to keep up with it.

544

:

So therefore we shouldn't do it.

545

:

That's not really good research either.

546

:

You know, I mean, it is, you

know, it's good research.

547

:

Sorry, it's not good reason

not to do these things.

548

:

So.

549

:

Assessment the parents assessment is

kind of interesting and how bizarre the

550

:

conclusions are, you know, and I actually

kind of You know, and I'm not, I don't

551

:

want to disregard what parents think

no more than I wanted to disregard what

552

:

children say at the beginning of this

podcast, but parents aren't educators

553

:

and they haven't a clue a lot of the

time about what they think is important.

554

:

They're like, you know, I mean, when

you, when you see the biggest reasons.

555

:

that they're giving is, oh yeah,

it's important to drum information

556

:

into children, even though

that's not how you teach anymore.

557

:

And it's a stupid thing to say.

558

:

And then, you know, oh, I don't

have time because I work, as reason

559

:

for not giving doing assessment.

560

:

That's a stupid reason as well.

561

:

You know in, in much the same ways,

should we, should we you know, take

562

:

seriously, should we teach more P.

563

:

E.

564

:

in art?

565

:

Because that's what children

like, as, as good research.

566

:

I don't know.

567

:

You know, well, you know, my

opinion is just because children

568

:

like P in art doesn't mean that

we should spend more time in it.

569

:

What's more important, you

know, is it more important to

570

:

teach literacy and numeracy?

571

:

I would suggest it probably is.

572

:

There are core subjects.

573

:

But no more than I think just

because children hate Irish,

574

:

we shouldn't teach it either.

575

:

Are they good reasons?

576

:

In much the same way as I'm talking

about parents ideas of assessment,

577

:

you know, and I, I, you know, being,

being a bit daft a lot of the time and

578

:

should we take it really seriously.

579

:

Who are the people that actually

know, know about education?

580

:

I would suggest it's the educators

themselves that actually do

581

:

know what we're talking about.

582

:

You know, we, we, you know, I think,

I think there's a bit of a, there's a

583

:

bit of a trend to Almost, um, not take

seriously educators when it comes to

584

:

education, not, you know, the people who

study pedagogy to not take their views

585

:

that seriously, or certainly at best,

take them as seriously as people who

586

:

don't have qualifications in education.

587

:

And I, I don't know, maybe

I'm being harsh here.

588

:

And but I mean, I do think it's food.

589

:

There's a bit of food for thought, even

for me, you know, that when we're when

590

:

we're doing these, when you know the

government are doing their consultations,

591

:

when researchers are doing the research

and when we're talking about, you know,

592

:

the views of the Children, the views of

the parents and the views of the teachers,

593

:

And who, who's been taken seriously

here from an academic perspective?

594

:

And we can see here in the research,

and I'm sorry for harping on about

595

:

this, but when we look at what are

the most important subjects and we

596

:

ask children, they'll say PE and art.

597

:

Now we know, we know they're

not the most important subjects.

598

:

They're important.

599

:

Don't get me wrong, but they

aren't the most important.

600

:

And when we ask them, we

can see in black and white.

601

:

When we ask children for their opinions,

that's what they're going to come up with.

602

:

As the, as, as, because they're

the things they like the most.

603

:

And absolutely, there's no, no doubt

about it, that that's, that's important.

604

:

But do we take it as academics?

605

:

Do we take that as serious research?

606

:

And there, you know, if we were to just

Simply conclude from what children think

607

:

we would be teaching PE and art all day.

608

:

And you know, maybe that's not fair.

609

:

We'd be certainly teaching more of us.

610

:

But then when we talk about

assessment, there were parents and

611

:

the, and the things that they come

across, come up with you know, that.

612

:

Oh, you have to drum in information,

you have to, you know, it just

613

:

flies in the face of good practice.

614

:

Anyway, you know, let's, let's,

speaking of should we take teachers

615

:

views and assessments seriously,

let's find out what they said.

616

:

They, they do assessment by the way,

that's good, you're good to know.

617

:

That they observe, 81 percent of them

observe and provide immediate feedback.

618

:

That's, most people do that.

619

:

In fact, you know.

620

:

Very, very few.

621

:

It's kind of interesting, really

hear from that by two things,

622

:

really, that are interesting to me.

623

:

Most teachers do regular

assessment kind of let frequently.

624

:

They don't let students

evaluate their own progress.

625

:

Only 38 percent of teachers let

students evaluate their own progress.

626

:

That's kind of interesting.

627

:

Although, in fairness, never is only 4%.

628

:

It's sometimes they let them do it.

629

:

That's kind of interesting.

630

:

And the other thing that's very

interesting is and this is something

631

:

that's probably changed since we

were in school, is that only 26%,

632

:

and actually I find that quite

high, 26 percent of teachers assign

633

:

a grade or a score on their work.

634

:

Now, I, I, I mean, I, I, Don't I mean,

I, I, that's kind of interesting in a

635

:

way, giving us, you know, giving a grade

these days, it seems very American.

636

:

And I wonder if we did this test

before the Instagram influencer times,

637

:

would that percentage have been lower?

638

:

You know, in the last, let's

say 20 years ago, you know,

639

:

when I, when I started teaching.

640

:

You know, the idea we were always

trained, you know, not to give a grade

641

:

because it's kind of meaningless.

642

:

In a way, it was more interesting

to give, you know, proper

643

:

feedback to each other rather than

reducing what they did to a score.

644

:

And I know in America, you know,

they're, they talk about grades still.

645

:

I mean, as in giving a grade to a

student, an A, B or C or whatever it is.

646

:

I wonder I wonder if that's

why the percentage has gone

647

:

to, has gone high enough.

648

:

Now, it's not high, high, very high.

649

:

It's 26%, but only 44 percent of

teachers never give a grade or a score,

650

:

which is kind of interesting, you know.

651

:

I don't know, I don't know.

652

:

Speaking of who should we take

seriously I guess maybe that's

653

:

something that's that maybe I have

to eat my words a little bit there.

654

:

I'm not sure.

655

:

Anyway.

656

:

Let's, moving on to standardised

tests parents of children in my

657

:

class are anxious about their

children's performance in standardised

658

:

tests, and 61 percent say that.

659

:

Very interestingly, though, only 7 percent

of teachers, which is good prepare their,

660

:

well, it's not good, it should be 0%,

spend a lot of their time preparing

661

:

their class for standardised tests.

662

:

81 percent never spend time.

663

:

That's, that's, you, you, I have to

commend the 81 percent of teachers

664

:

there, because you're not supposed to.

665

:

Are they anxious?

666

:

Actually, whether, sorry, the question

here, whether teachers are anxious

667

:

about their class performance on

standardized tests, and whether children

668

:

are anxious about their performance.

669

:

So, parents are more anxious than

children, children are more anxious

670

:

than teachers, only slightly, there's

only 1%, so it's half and half.

671

:

And then, standardized tests

influence my teaching for the better.

672

:

Most teachers said it doesn't.

673

:

It does beg the question of what's

the point of standardized tests?

674

:

And, in fact, when you ask them

whether standardized tests are a

675

:

measure of good teaching, most say no.

676

:

Again, you'd wonder about that 7 percent

who said yes and strongly agree with that.

677

:

It's bizarre.

678

:

And most children in my class

spend a lot of time preparing

679

:

for standardized tests at home.

680

:

And again, weird.

681

:

Figures that it's not 0 percent as agree.

682

:

And still 80 percent again.

683

:

It's about the 80 percent that

never strongly disagree with this.

684

:

There are 20 percent of teachers

out there that need to have

685

:

a long look at themselves.

686

:

In my view there.

687

:

Feeling confident about

standardized tests.

688

:

Teachers seem to be absolutely fine

and calm despite what they said before.

689

:

And the school principal says that I am

anxious during standardized test periods.

690

:

Only 1%.

691

:

Have said that, which

is kind of interesting.

692

:

Somebody said, one of the questions

is, I experience heart palpitations

693

:

during standardized test periods.

694

:

Five percent of of younger teachers

say yes, which is kind of interesting.

695

:

Not younger in age, younger class size.

696

:

Class age, which is a bit mad.

697

:

But there you go.

698

:

Not a lot of anxiety around

them, which is good, I suppose.

699

:

Going on to SESE.

700

:

The only interesting thing is whether they

take into account test results in deciding

701

:

decisions around curriculum development.

702

:

Mainly yes is the answer which

makes sense, I suppose, in a way.

703

:

And principals believe that their staff

are calm during that time as well.

704

:

So that's kind of interesting as well.

705

:

Just more quotes.

706

:

Let's move on, because to out

of school learning, or homework,

707

:

as it's more commonly known.

708

:

Interesting to, again, to show, to hear

about the children's views on homework.

709

:

They generally don't like homework.

710

:

They find it boring.

711

:

Should we ban homework?

712

:

They say yes.

713

:

So this is, this is kind of interesting

and to me, children don't like homework.

714

:

And I don't like homework.

715

:

As, as people might know

they find it boring.

716

:

They find it they find it

isn't relevant to them.

717

:

But then you ask their parents and

they have exactly the opposite opinion.

718

:

So, I suppose again, we have

to ask the question of why do

719

:

children not like homework?

720

:

Why do parents like homework?

721

:

And In my case, why don't I like over?

722

:

So me with some academics behind me

you know, I'm, I'm more in agreement

723

:

with the Children, but I don't

necessarily agree with the reasoning.

724

:

You know, I find it very odd.

725

:

You know, that Children, Children

don't like it for different reasons.

726

:

Parents like it for

frankly bizarre reasons.

727

:

You know, they, they You know, again,

it's going back to my question here, and

728

:

I think maybe this is becoming a theme

of this study as to who do we, who do

729

:

we trust in research and who do we take

seriously in research and should we take

730

:

You know, some views seriously or not now.

731

:

I'm not saying we shouldn't.

732

:

I'm just I'm just asking.

733

:

I really just asking the question.

734

:

Because I do think we need to ask

parents and we need to ask Children

735

:

the same questions as we ask teachers.

736

:

But then when we're analyzing the results.

737

:

What do we do as a result of that?

738

:

Do we just kind of look

at them as interesting?

739

:

Or do we look at them as interesting

and then do something based on that?

740

:

So when it comes to homework here, and I

suppose I suppose when I saw it I wasn't

741

:

surprised, but I was disappointed that

Parents, the majority of parents like

742

:

homework, despite the fact that almost

every study that you see out there shows

743

:

that at primary level that homework does

not benefit children in their learning.

744

:

And this is, I suppose, where

you have that tension between the

745

:

actual research and then people's

opinions, which are grounded in

746

:

nothing apart from their opinions.

747

:

And You know, again, , I must say.

748

:

You know, I, I have to concede a lot

of the time that, you know, you know,

749

:

academic research isn't always unbiased,

you know, you know, I mean, we know

750

:

that for a fact, like for an example,

if you look at the research on single

751

:

sex schools, if you look at any research

defending single sex education, it

752

:

will come from a biased place from, and

generally the researchers are religious

753

:

borders and single sex schools themselves.

754

:

And if you look at Research on

anything really these days, you have

755

:

to look at who's written the research.

756

:

So I'm not saying that academic

research is infallible.

757

:

buT, uh, you know, and I'm also the

other thing aside of it as well.

758

:

I'm also not saying that

opinion isn't invalid either.

759

:

You know, I think people's opinions

count for a lot, you know, I mean,

760

:

one of the things that I would say

you know, look at, look at, looking at

761

:

homework here is, okay, there must be

a reason why parents find value in it.

762

:

Now I may not agree with their

conclusions, but if they find value in

763

:

it, what is the value that they find?

764

:

And this is where this study actually

gets into the meat and bones of it.

765

:

It seems to be one of the only

ways that parents know what's going

766

:

on with their children's learning

so that they can support it.

767

:

And when I talk about homework, and I've

talked about homework in this podcast

768

:

before, I've debunked pretty much every

myth about how beneficial homework is.

769

:

But the one thing I wasn't

able to do was that fact.

770

:

You know, the fact that parents see

homework as beneficial because it

771

:

is the only way that they know what

their children are doing in school.

772

:

And I think that I couldn't find

an argument against that in a way.

773

:

And my conclusion really was,

well, if that's the reason that

774

:

parents like homework, well, then

maybe we should, maybe we should

775

:

tackle that by giving parents.

776

:

What they want, which is knowing what

their children are covering in class.

777

:

They're not necessarily giving homework,

but they might be but they might actually

778

:

be giving We need to be giving them the

information about what the children are

779

:

covering So what I would be suggesting

instead of homework would be that every

780

:

week a teacher would summarize what

they're learning in school that week

781

:

And if you want for your to support

your child in that here are some ideas

782

:

rather than giving Homework, like lists

of nonsense for, for, for homework.

783

:

So it's kind of, kind of interesting,

I suppose, when it comes to that.

784

:

I'm kind of, I want to

move on then to teachers.

785

:

And this is really interesting.

786

:

It was about the amount of

time they expect per week for

787

:

children to focus on homework.

788

:

And it was really interesting

to see that it's low enough.

789

:

You know, most Junior classes spend no

more than two hours a week on homework.

790

:

97 percent no more than two hours a week.

791

:

So roughly, what is it, less

than half an hour a day.

792

:

Now, you know, and I could see

actually 12%, only up to 10

793

:

minutes a week is, is there.

794

:

And the vast, you know, the majority,

more than half, up to an hour a week.

795

:

So 20, what is it, about 10 minutes

a day, 10 to 15 minutes a day.

796

:

So that's, you know, not, not so much.

797

:

But then you go into the senior classes.

798

:

And you're looking at it.

799

:

It's still not up to two hours a week.

800

:

So we're looking at, I'm just adding

up the sums here, 66, 60, 70 percent

801

:

up to two hours a week, and then 30

percent of over two hours a week.

802

:

You know, I, I dunno, time to me.

803

:

Isn't that important?

804

:

Really, I don't know why we

measure homework in time.

805

:

I, I'd be more inclined to to, to

measure homework and meaningfulness.

806

:

You know how much time doesn't

correlate with success.

807

:

And though you, you know, again, I can

see where that comes from particularly

808

:

when I was in secondary school,

how many hours do you study a week?

809

:

Or how a day for your leaving sort

of whatever it is seems to be,

810

:

seemed to be the biggest question.

811

:

If I remember correctly being,

being asked rather than.

812

:

What did you actually study which is

frankly odd, I don't know, very, very odd.

813

:

Anyway, moving on to extracurricular

activities which is of less interest

814

:

to me, I suppose, from an academic

point of view but more for, for

815

:

children, when I was looking at

the pictures, I was kind of nice.

816

:

I don't know how biased the, the

pictures I chose, but interesting to

817

:

see that the majority of them were

active rather than being on a tablet or

818

:

on a computer, although that featured.

819

:

Then it goes on then to COVID 19.

820

:

And I said if I had time I'd cover

it and I'm coming up to 45 minutes.

821

:

I think I have a little bit of it there.

822

:

I thought how the curriculum has

changed was interesting since COVID 19.

823

:

So the curriculum hasn't changed,

but the amount of time we spend on

824

:

subjects, what has changed there.

825

:

And again, and it won't be any

surprise to people, English and maths.

826

:

Ha.

827

:

We're now spending much more time than

Prelock time on English and maths.

828

:

We're actually spending more time on

SPHE, which is really, really interesting.

829

:

And I'm not surprised to see

that the amount of anxiety that

830

:

has, has risen in children.

831

:

So we have to tackle that through

wellbeing programs, which are now part

832

:

of SPHE, which is kind of interesting.

833

:

But what's the subject that has said

that is, and, and by far I mean way, way,

834

:

way, way, way far that we're spending the

less time on, yeah, you've guessed it.

835

:

It's religion.

836

:

Religion, religion, religion.

837

:

58 percent of teachers spending

even less time on religion

838

:

than they did pre lockdown.

839

:

And this will be bad news, of course, for

people who are patrons of schools, who

840

:

insist that Catholicism and Protestantism

and Islam and Judaism are central.

841

:

schools and we can clearly see at

this point the pattern emerging is

842

:

that teachers don't agree with that

and they are spending very little

843

:

time on their religious programs.

844

:

I, I, in fact, in fairness though, I

don't expect that everybody in this

845

:

study was working in a religious

school, but because it's religious

846

:

education, I, I imagine that Probably

translates to ethical education.

847

:

That's how I certainly translated

it when I was doing the, the thing.

848

:

And again, I think the,

the same could be said.

849

:

But because it's religion that they're

talking about in the vast majority

850

:

of schools are religious schools.

851

:

We have to look at that fact and we

can see the pattern is undeniable.

852

:

I, I, I'm Irish interestingly enough in

this spending less time and and more time.

853

:

That wasn't really affected.

854

:

By the pandemic.

855

:

I would have thought maybe the

Irish standards would have gone down

856

:

just based on the amount of Irish

that's spoken in the home, but it

857

:

really wasn't something that was

massively impacted by the pandemic.

858

:

So that's kind of interesting in itself.

859

:

In terms of assessment when it came

to COVID times, I suppose There was

860

:

a few bits and pieces, but one thing

that jumped out at me was this, it was

861

:

a small little paragraph just around

digital technologies and how that

862

:

created new opportunities in schools.

863

:

Which I guess was one of the . I suppose

maybe one of the only good things about

864

:

COVID-19 times is that for it was the

thing that ensured that everybody.

865

:

Then started using digital technologies

in a good way, mostly in a good way

866

:

when it came to education, I've spoken

about the history of education and

867

:

technology, technology and education for

that matter over the last 20 years in

868

:

its history and how actually Although

all the tools were there for things to

869

:

happen, many of them weren't being used.

870

:

Things like Google Classroom,

Seesaw, and all the rest were

871

:

being used by a few people.

872

:

But when the pandemic came along

almost every school in the country

873

:

embraced technology for the first time.

874

:

And it's nice to see from this

report that a lot of it has remained,

875

:

particularly in terms of communication.

876

:

And in some ways going back to that

thing on homework it's, it's one of

877

:

the easier ways where teachers can

communicate to parents what's going

878

:

on in the classroom if that's why

parents are like homework, so they

879

:

know what's going on in the classroom.

880

:

Well, with digital communication,

it's very easy now to be able to

881

:

communicate what's going on in the

classroom on Google Classroom, or on

882

:

Seesaw, or any of those other tools

to let them know what's going on.

883

:

And I'll conclude one of the SESE on

the study said it was an effective

884

:

way to communicate regularly with

families about their individual

885

:

children or about what is happening

in the class or school in general.

886

:

So that's pretty good.

887

:

And some mention of Aladdin there,

Class Dojo, and other tools as

888

:

well, which are very useful.

889

:

So there you have it.

890

:

I mean, that is essentially a

very, very, very brief summary.

891

:

I actually didn't, I, I

thought there'd be more to it.

892

:

That's why I kind of

skipped over lots of it.

893

:

But I hope I got the main

kind of things through.

894

:

Just to summarize my own thoughts

in a way before I, before I stop.

895

:

You know, I, I went into that study.

896

:

Because it was to do with the

curriculum and to do with assessment

897

:

and things like that, I was interested

in attitudes towards Irish, religion

898

:

some of the art subjects, particularly

drama, because I, I've always seen

899

:

those as the, you know, kind of low

hanging fruits of the curriculum.

900

:

I mean, whenever we're talking about You

know changing the curriculum or moving

901

:

the curriculum somewhere else or making

big changes, you know, the lowest hanging

902

:

fruits really were drama, I suppose, and

religion were the two subjects that you

903

:

probably look at first at cutting, if you

were going to be cutting anything from the

904

:

primary language curriculum, from, sorry,

from the primary curriculum so it was

905

:

interesting to see that drama is indeed

thought of least By teachers where they

906

:

teach it very, very, they don't teach very

much of it and don't take it as seriously.

907

:

Religion as well.

908

:

I, I was kind of, and I've, I've harped on

enough about the religion aspect of this.

909

:

I suppose as I've gone on, but

it is very, very interesting.

910

:

Irish to me was a, another

interesting thing in, insofar as

911

:

it was a bit different from drama

and religion, you know, with drama

912

:

and religion, you know, it was

fairly unanimous teachers attitudes.

913

:

Whereas Irish was slightly different

in that teachers did like teaching it

914

:

and found it important and so on, but

children had the opposite view of that.

915

:

I would have been interested to see

what parents felt about each subject

916

:

and how important they saw them.

917

:

But I think you know, aside from

that, the, as it was the unintended

918

:

consequence of going through this

study, is it really got me thinking.

919

:

about who do we trust when it comes

to asking questions about academia,

920

:

about education, about pedagogy.

921

:

You know, while it's important to get

the views of parents, of children, of

922

:

staff, of the general public, and so on.

923

:

I guess, you know, who

do we take seriously?

924

:

I suppose if we were going to be asking,

you know, a different job, let's say

925

:

the Garda Force, you know, you could

ask the Gardaí about, you know, their,

926

:

the inner workings of their, of their,

of their job, and then you could ask

927

:

the public for their opinion of it.

928

:

And I would, I would like to hope that.

929

:

Public perception might form a very

minor part of any changes that were

930

:

made, but certainly the internal workings

of the Gardaí are best suited and best

931

:

I suppose, engaged with by the Gardaí

themselves, who actually know their jobs,

932

:

eh, day and day, in, out, and so on.

933

:

I'm not sure of education.

934

:

In that case, or maybe if we could talk

about health, for example, if we asked

935

:

the public or we asked patients and we

asked the the nurses and doctors and

936

:

so on about medical practices, which

of those three you take more seriously,

937

:

I, I think, you know, in some ways, We

have to treat education in the same way.

938

:

We need to take the views of the people

working within the system probably a

939

:

bit more seriously than those who are

experiencing it and maybe haven't done

940

:

any background or qualifications in it.

941

:

It's just a question, I don't know.

942

:

I mean, I haven't really, as I said,

this is a live reading so I haven't

943

:

really looked into that very much

and maybe it's just nonsensical.

944

:

You know, that's I suppose really that's

where I, I would probably conclude and

945

:

it's always good and one of the things

I really love about the CSL study is

946

:

how it raises questions that you didn't

really think you might have do you know,

947

:

and it Explores areas which need to be

explored and aren't explored very often.

948

:

And, you know, to be fair,

you get the children's voice.

949

:

So it's nice to know what

children are thinking.

950

:

And and, you know, I think as educators,

you do listen to the children.

951

:

And you do adapt your practices

to make the classroom a more

952

:

enjoyable place for them.

953

:

Because, while you want to get the

education into them, and you want to

954

:

teach them things, but if they're,

I'm of the opinion that if children

955

:

aren't happy or if they don't feel

safe, well, they aren't going to learn.

956

:

So, in some ways, obviously,

their opinion absolutely matters.

957

:

And I think, obviously, we

should keep that in mind.

958

:

So, I, I dunno, I mean, I think

I'd love to be, I'd love to hear

959

:

your thoughts on, on the study.

960

:

I mean, do have a read of it, as I said.

961

:

Everything's in the show notes.

962

:

Great study as always.

963

:

Fantastic.

964

:

Congratulations again to Jennifer Simmons

and her team for such a brilliant report.

965

:

And I hope you enjoyed my

live poetry reading of it too.

966

:

So there you have it.

967

:

I hope you enjoyed that summary of

the CSL study number six, the report.

968

:

And as I said, if you have any comments.

969

:

Or you just want to

completely disagree with me.

970

:

I'd be all ears.

971

:

I love hearing people's opinions

on what I have to say, even if

972

:

we don't agree with each other.

973

:

Lots of conclusions to be made

from that report, especially the

974

:

role of religion, Irish, drama, P.

975

:

E., and art as well, if

you're taking the children's.

976

:

points of views, homework and

even assessment loads and loads

977

:

and loads to discuss and explore.

978

:

Listen, if you've enjoyed this, feel

free to subscribe to the podcast on

979

:

your favorite podcasting platform.

980

:

And please add your

comments and go to unshot.

981

:

net.

982

:

And you can now actually

subscribe to a newsletter from

983

:

me where I will let you know.

984

:

When the next episode of

this podcast is published.

985

:

So you'd hear from me once every

couple of weeks at this point.

986

:

I also will send you links to articles

I found very interesting and maybe some

987

:

blog posts I've written in the meantime.

988

:

Anyway, I hope you've enjoyed this.

989

:

Thanks for listening.

990

:

All the very best.

991

:

Bye bye.

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An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis