Episode 12

What do most schools mean when they say Religious Education?

You will not be surprised to hear that my first podcast of the 2024-2025 school year is about religion in schools. It's a topic I'm always coming back to and it never ceases to amaze me of how many different angles you can find from it. But what I want to explore in this episode is what do most schools mean when they talk about religion. Maybe a better title would have been, "What we talk about when we talk about religion in schools."

Transcript
Speaker:

Hello?

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Hello.

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You're very welcome to if

I were the minister for

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education from unsharp dot Nat.

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What do most schools mean when

they say religious education?

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It's 20 24, 20 25.

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Back to school time.

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And I'm delighted to be back

for another year of if I were

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the minister for education.

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For those of you who don't know,

this is a regular podcast, a produce.

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Hosted by me, Simon Lewis

from onshore dot Nash.

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And if you are listing for the very

first time, I hope you enjoy it.

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The premise of the podcast is

that I take an aspect of the

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Irish primary education system.

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And I look at it in detail.

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And let you know what I would do if

I were the minister for education,

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I hope you all had a lovely summer

and maybe I've got the energy buckets

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was very energy sapping year, last

year with all the stuff going on.

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I'm not sure how much of

that is going to change.

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But my first episode

is based on an article.

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That I saw of in of all papers of

all the newspapers that I would see

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an article from the Irish Catholic.

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So you will not be surprised to hear

that my first podcast of:

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2025 is about our religion in schools.

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The topic I'm always coming back to.

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And I'm never ceases to amaze

me of how many different angles.

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You can find fromage.

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But what I want to explore in this

episode is what do most schools mean?

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When they talk about religion.

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In schools, I think, and I don't

know if this is deliberate or not on.

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And I'm not saying it.

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I suspect it is.

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But when you hear about religion

in schools, What do you think now?

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Many people.

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We'll think that religion

means faith formation.

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So that's, what some people

would call indoctrination.

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So it would mean prayers.

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It would mean staging, religion.

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As a fact, and teaching children

had passing on the word of God.

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Some people think religion

means teaching about religions.

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Learning about whatever the

various faiths around the world.

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And I think.

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That's that certainly happens

in some schools, but not as many

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as I'd say most people think.

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And where is that balance?

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Where we're, where is that balance

between religious education?

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Religious instruction.

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Are they the same thing?

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And they aren't by the way.

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And what is the difference between

them and why do we have so many ways

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of describing what a religion class

or a religious ethos looks like?

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So that's what I'm going to explore today.

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I'm going to be helped very

much by an article that I

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wrote my, that I wrote on this.

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Back a few days ago on my medium blog.

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If you are interested by the way in

subscribing to this podcast, you can do

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by going to your favorite podcast and.

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Subscribing.

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As you do, but if you're interested

in reading along to some of the

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articles that are, that I base my

podcasts on, I published most of

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them onSimon@mlewisdotmedium.com.

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And this one is called, what do

most schools mean when they say

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religious education that was

published around the 18th of August?

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I got worse.

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So maybe you're into 18th,

19th, or 20th of August.

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Anyway, you'll find it.

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You'll find it there.

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One of his writing, the article.

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I always have a cover

image, a featured image.

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And I usually use AI to generate

that image and the AI prompts that

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I used to generate my image was

religion class in a primary school.

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And I was really surprised

to see what came out.

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Of the AI generator, which was a

classroom, but as you would expect,

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the children are sitting in rows and

it's quite a multicultural classroom.

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Actually, I found something interesting

was the children are in uniforms.

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They're all wearing the same clothes.

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But the thing that stood out to me

most was across at the Christian

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Cross at the back of the classroom.

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And I felt, this is an AI generator that

doesn't know that I'm in Ireland that

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doesn't know very much about me at all.

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Doesn't know anything about where it is.

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As such is the prevail.

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Of religion in schools.

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I just thought it was interesting

that just that prompt, maybe that I'd

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said religion class in primary school.

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At the top was the religion.

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Data was decided upon adds despite,

if you look at the picture of

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yourself, Ah, on the medium blog.

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You may wonder why.

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Looking at the children in the

class, but the reason I wrote this

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article was on the back of the

front page of the Irish Catholic.

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On the Irish Catholic reported more

religion, please say school children.

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Now.

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The first thing I thought.

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When I saw this.

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Was where are they get?

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Not from, I thought.

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An amazing thing to hear young children

say that they want more religion in

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schools ad surely they have enough

fish with 10% or 20 feet is in

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sometimes a lot more than that, of

their school day dedicated to religion.

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Both.

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I read the arch.

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The front page of the article

that I read the I carried on.

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Reading it and it seemed to come from.

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A study, a survey from the

20th anniversary celebrations

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of the ombudsman for children.

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What they did was they released a survey

about young people's thoughts on a

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number of issues, including education.

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And as I said, the Irish Catherine

reported that the survey showed that young

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people want more religion in schools.

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I have to delve further.

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I'm most people, I think we'll be

surprised at such a finding so surprised.

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I would say that none of the mainstream

newspapers cover this survey at all.

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I didn't see any articles in the Irish

times, or I shouldn't abandoned or

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the RTE or anything like that because.

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I guess there's a reason

when stories like that.

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Aren't covert.

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And I decided I'd find out because.

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On surprisingly, it turned out the

headline was at best misleading.

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When look, when one looked at the

survey results in closer detail.

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Because when the question actually

asked to students is what subjects.

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So you said you think there should be

more subjects available in schools.

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What new subject would you like to see

added to the curriculum now showed out

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this was secondary school students.

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So this is what they did.

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The options were Languages practical

life skills, computer science

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and engineering, sports science.

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And then they lumped religion, psychology

and drama into one of the options.

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I don't know why all three,

how the three are interlinked.

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But essentially that was the most popular.

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And the Irish Catholic.

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Took from that.

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They ignored the psychology and

drama Vish, but they said that most

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children want more religion in schools.

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Which is an interesting.

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View of it.

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But I guess.

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I guess that's I suppose they

have to be the eternal optimists.

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However, if you were tasked me.

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If I believe, and I think this

is where I want to come to is.

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I'm not really interested in the, in

giving age about the Irish Catholic

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and how they've, made a kind of

manipulated the data from the survey

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to suit some sort of agenda with

the the Catholic agenda in schools.

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The children wanted now as it goes on in

the article, you should read the article.

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It's quite it's very, it takes Sasha

a statistic and really runs with it.

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To the point of.

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Yeah.

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To, to beyond the point of seriousness.

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In my view, but anyway, I'm

not interested in taking tests,

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slagging off the Irish Catholics.

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R-squared they're going to

do what they're going to do.

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What I'm interested in

is actually looking out.

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W what does this actually mean?

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I think some of the students, and

if I, in fact, I'm absolutely sure.

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Many students do want

more religion in schools.

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And if you were tasked me,

if I believe there should be

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religion taught in schools.

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Despite my campaigning for a

separation of church and state and

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irons, I would emphatically say yes.

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I believe.

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We should be teaching religion in schools.

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Now as many of, I don't subscribe to a

particular religion, but I believe it's

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very important to learn about religions.

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And from them too.

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Because if you look at, if you

look at the world, as it is.

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I don't subscribe to a particular

religion, but I'm in the minority.

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I'm one of the 15% of the world that

doesn't have a particular faith.

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About 85% of the world.

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Has a religion has a faith of some sort.

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And to me.

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I could sit there and go I'm right.

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And everyone else is wrong and

everyone else is stupid and

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all the rest of it, I don't.

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I don't believe that I

genuinely don't believe that.

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And I've often talked about how sometimes

I feel a bit jealous of people that have.

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You have a faith.

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And I told the story of

my mom when she was dying.

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Has she genuinely believed she would be,

at least hopefully going to heaven in her

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view but genuinely believing that would be

the case and that she would see us again.

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And I, as I've said before, I would

dearly love to have that faith.

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Unfortunately I don't but it makes

sense to me that I should understand

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why people believe, what they believe.

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And I should respect those wishes,

even if I don't share their beliefs.

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And I, if you look at the size

of major religious groups, it's.

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About 10 years old now at this stage.

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Christians are about 30 odd

percent Muslims, about 23, 20 4%

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Hindus, about 15%, 7% Buddhists.

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And then you've got, other religions

taking providers ones 2% and then folk

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religions, as they're known at about 6%.

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And then you've got about 15, 16% who

are on affiliated to a particular faith.

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So more people believe in odd God.

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Or S or gods than don't.

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And I think it's important that

and I know we're raising our child.

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W without origin, but we're also raising

him to try and learn and understand why.

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About religions.

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Why people do what they do so that

we can respect them for what they do.

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Being religious is not a bad thing.

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I think some people who are, who, not

all people with religion, I think.

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But some people, the religion

thing, those who don't have

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a religion are anti-religion.

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I have no M I have no ill feeling

towards anyone who has a religion at all.

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My, my kind of line in the

sand is you just don't try

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and convert me to your faith.

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I don't want that.

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I also feel that if you have a faith,

you should keep that to your own family.

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It's a private matter.

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And this is why I campaign against it in

the ma in schools, in our end, because

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that's where it does cross the line.

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So for example, I cannot teach in

the vast majority of schools because.

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I cannot uphold.

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A religious ethos because

it is not an ethos I share.

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It is not a faith that I share.

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I have no problem, obviously with

conflict people being Catholic.

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But but when that is used in a way

that excludes me from employment

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or excludes children as part

of the school day, And so on.

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That's where there's a line.

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You can run schools without a

religion permeating through it, or a

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particular faith at running through

it at, there is no I, the argument

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dash, you need Catholic schools or.

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Church of Ireland schools or Jewish

schools or Muslims goes is not,

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is, has no grounding whatsoever.

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We teach children.

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I had to be good people

and we don't need religion.

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And to to change that, I think I've often

said we have far more in common when

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it comes to multidimensional schools

and religious NGOs have far more in

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common than they do differences and

we focus entirely on the differences,

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but going back to why I think it's

important to learn about religion.

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I want you to give an example that

if I meet an Orthodox Jewish woman, I

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believe it's up to me to know and respect

that she can't shake my hand, whether

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or not I think that's silly or not.

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It's not my business, whether she

wants to shake my hundred nosh.

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I just have to respect that.

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That's what she believes.

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And it's no skin off my back if if

I don't shake this person's hands.

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Just for those who don't know, I've

made a link in the article it's called

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it's from a concept called Nikia.

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And it's it explains why.

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I don't have to agree with it.

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I just have to respect it.

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And similarly, I believe it's up to me to

learn why many Muslim women choose to wear

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a hijab or another head covering rather

than deciding myself that it's oppressive.

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As many people do.

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And again, I've linked to an

article about the of Muslim women

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speaking about the reason they

choose to wear or head covering.

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However, learning about religions.

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Is not what happens in the vast

majority of Irish primary schools,

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religious education in most Irish

primary schools is faith forming

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or confessional to use the term.

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In fact, in Ireland, the subject of

religion and faith schools uses the

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terms, faith, formation, religion,

religious education, and religious

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instruction interchangeably.

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If you if you're, if this is where I think

the confusion comes from all these terms,

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even though they mean different things.

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Are used interchangeably

in denominational schools.

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However, they are not the same.

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If you read that survey from the the OCO.

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The ombudsman.

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And you read the comments

from the students.

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It's really clear.

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To me, at least again, it's my

interpretation that students aren't

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interested in faith formation.

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When they say religion, it's

learning about religions.

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I read one of the quotes, more

education about different cultures

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and religions instead of only

studying Christianity in schools.

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I think schools that are based on one,

religion discriminate all the others.

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It's a very.

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Some people will find dash.

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A statement abrasive.

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And it is, but it's pretty

factual, when you teach one.

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Faith, one worldview as.

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As fact to a group of people that don't

share that faith, you are discriminating

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them on the basis of religion is one of

the grounds of discrimination that you

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shouldn't be allowed to do any religion.

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The only one to get onto explaining.

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Maybe those terms and what they

probably what they do mean.

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And religious education, as

opposed to religion, religious

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education should be objective.

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Critical and pluralistic.

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So it needs to be all three of

those things to be religious

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education and religious instruction.

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Is different.

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It's faith forming in one belief.

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In other words, only one perspective

is presented as the truth.

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With other beliefs, if they're mentioned

at all, as alternatives to the truth

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that you, tolerate, or maybe respect.

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But it certainly isn't what we

do in our denominational school.

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And that can be very isolating to someone

who is not of that faith of that school.

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If they spend eight years in primary

school listening to messages of a dash

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Catholicism in most cases is the truth.

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And yeah, we're nice to the rest of you.

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We tolerate you wherever,

and I don't mean that in a.

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I'm not trying to be mean or

rude or anything like that.

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Tolerance in the nicest possible way.

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I think tolerance is another

word that has been bought.

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Turn, it has been come a bad

word, have some sort of tolerance

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is actually not a bad thing.

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It's good to tolerate people.

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But a tolerance is not seen as a

good thing when it comes to religion,

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but that's what you're doing.

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It's not inclusion, let's

say it's tolerance anyway.

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So if we look at the current Catholic

primary program and it's eight

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years syllabus, so you look at the

current coffee program, which is

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called, I think it's growing love.

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There are two weeks in total in the

whole of the eight years, not two weeks,

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every year, two weeks in the full eight

year program dedicated to learning about

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other fates I'm one week is on Judaism

and the other one is on Islam and they're

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presented from a Christian point of view.

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And for the rest of the entire eight

years Catholicism, or maybe more widely

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Christiana, she has such as a concept

is taught to the children on critically.

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There is no room for anything

critical or objective.

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Nevermind pluralistic in it.

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There is no uncertainty in the

lessons offered to the children.

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So you might wonder why a country

like Ireland, which has a very low

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percentage of practicing Catholics.

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I know there's quite

a number of Catholics.

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But in name, but practicing

Catholics is a far lower number.

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I would accept the 90% of primary schools

teach their children messages that they

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themselves don't particularly believe.

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So you have, I think you would,

the statistical moment is

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people are around parent to age.

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This is about 50 odd,

50, 53% apparent aged.

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Irish people.

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R a.

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Identify as Catholic and the

census and the most recent census.

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Yet.

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Most of them have absolutely no problems.

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Sending their kids to a Catholic primary

school where they receive faith formation.

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And I find that really

difficult to understand and.

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I can only resolve.

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To me.

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That I think the blurring of

what religion means when these

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schools talk about religion.

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Is where this is coming from.

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For example, if you look at any of

the Catholic agencies in Ireland,

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they will always refer to religion.

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They never refer to.

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Religious instruction really?

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They were fair to the religious

instruction, his skills,

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his religious education.

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They refuse to accept it as faith forming.

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And I've said this, your faith for

me is that we're not faith forming.

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We're inviting the children to

learn, and they become a ghast if

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I describe it as indoctrination.

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And by the way, just for those of

you who find the word indoctrination,

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absolutely appalling as well in her ears,

seeding an anger at me at the moment.

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Indoctrination just means the process

of teaching a person or a group to

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accept a set of beliefs on critically.

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Which is exactly what happens

when it comes to faith formation

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in Irish primary schools.

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It's just, it's not that you're forcing

something down the throats of children,

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as people think indoctrination is,

it's just teaching something without

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criticism, that's indoctrination.

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And if one looks at most Christian run

primary schools in Ireland, which is

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basically which is basically most of

the denominational schools bar three,

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one will see a sentence similar to this.

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It will be, it won't be exactly this,

but something similar in our school.

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We believe in a Christian God, but

we are happy to accept other faith.

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And none in our community and on the

surface, that really seems very welcoming.

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Doesn't it?

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We're happy to accept

everybody into our school.

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We don't mind what you believe.

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In fact, if you don't believe at all,

you are very welcome in our school,

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but it doesn't take much to break down.

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What I can only describe as

animal farm language here.

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All animals are equal, but some

animals are more equal than others is

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a way of doing it of saying it didn't

schools call themselves inclusive.

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So they talk about, we are an inclusive

Catholic school and some of them go

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further if they're a single sex school

and say they're an inclusive Catholic

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girls school, despite excluding.

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Boys and yeah.

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But they in call themselves

inclusive to all fates and none.

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And I've written about this and

loads of lots of different ways,

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because I don't actually think they

know what inclusion really means.

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And I'd recommend if

you have a bit of time.

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Too.

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It's one of my biggest bugbears

about what does inclusion actually

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mean in a Catholic school.

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And I don't think they actually, I suppose

what they actually mean is tolerance.

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Because, at the end of the day, no

Irish primary school, including the

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multidimensional skills can be fully

inclusive for a number of reasons.

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And I'm not just talking

about religion here.

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I'm talking about special education.

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I'm talking about lots of

different issues, but any school

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that calls themselves inclusive,

isn't working hard enough.

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Anyway, the blurring of the definitions

of religious education and religious

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instruction has been wildly successful.

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In my view for denominational

education, by doing this, it's,

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they've managed to retain an illusion

that Irish primary schools are not.

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Contravening, any equality laws.

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It's successfully high.

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He's buying the fact that they

see absolutely no difference

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between instruction and education.

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And this allows faith

formation to continue.

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And about 95% of Irish primary schools

supported by this kind of thin veil

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of proof that this is what parents.

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And now students, once you'll often

hear about that's a parents want these.

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Religion religious schools.

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And there's no real proof of that big.

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And to be honest with it, there's

apathy by the looks of things.

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But certainly not certainly not a want.

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Advocacy groups do try their best to try

and help parents and students understand

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:

there is a difference between religious

instruction and religious education.

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But it's a really difficult task and the

parents aren't in the classroom, they

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:

don't S they don't know what goes on

all the time in this, in the schools.

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I do I've holes in these skills

and it's, if you were there, you

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:

would shirk a number of times.

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Maybe he wouldn't.

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This is the thing I think the whole

cultural Catholicism that exists is a

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lot of things are seen as totally normal.

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Do you know what I mean?

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You look at.

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You look at the idea of most Irish

people will, be appalled at, let's

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say arranged marriages, where you see

little girls wearing wedding dresses

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in countries like India, Pakistan,

where there's where this can happen.

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I, and yes, they don't see that.

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Communion dress is it's a mini

wedding dress, these kinds of things.

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And I know that.

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That might sound trite.

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And maybe it's not a good

example, but I think.

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We see things through certain eyes.

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And I think a lot of Irish

people who have gone through the

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:

Catholic system themselves, I

don't shirk at certain things.

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I don't know a picture of a

man being nailed to a cross.

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And, children being asked to color

a man, these kinds of things, or

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:

do you know the famous one that.

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That did seem to make people sure

was that there was a lesson in senior

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:

infants or first costs were an angel

comes through the window to a young

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Marriott and are served, to you.

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And, I don't do not be afraid.

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And it's like a stranger coming

in my window kind of thing.

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But, you it's amazing

how blinkered I would be.

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:

I would have been guilty of this in

my own faith upbringing of things that

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:

just, I wouldn't, I would shark out now.

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:

But so I can see, I suppose

I'm laboring the point here.

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:

It is a very difficult task.

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:

And when a society has been instructed in

the same message for so many generations,

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:

it can be hard to get a different

message through particular, most believe.

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Even if they don't like it.

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:

They feel it didn't do them any harm.

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:

Sure.

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:

What harm?

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:

I don't believe in it anymore.

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:

Anyway.

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:

Sure.

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:

Look, isn't the best.

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:

It's no harm anyway, to

send the kid in there.

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:

They're not going to be diva either.

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:

However, I would argue that people

might look beyond themselves and

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:

their own experiences go and maybe

for maybe try and put themselves in

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:

the shoes of children teachers where

the system of religious instruction.

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:

Does cause harm.

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:

And I think this is where this is probably

the key here that I think a lot of Irish

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:

people, particularly Irish people, and

maybe people who are in countries who come

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:

from countries where Catholic education

is the norm, is that they see it as no

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:

harm because it did damn no harm, but

they need to, in my view, you need to put

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:

yourself in the shoes of other people.

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:

So these are the children that have to

sit at the back of classrooms every single

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:

day, while faith formation is going on

while they're excluded from the rest of

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:

their task, their visitors in their own.

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:

And costume.

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:

These are the teachers that have to

pretend to be practicing Christians,

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:

to be missionaries, to lead worship, to

ensure they pass on that faith that you

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:

don't take very serious for yourself

to the children, whether or not they

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:

believe in that message themselves.

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:

And if they can't do this, or if it's

perceived that they can't do this,

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:

they're on able to get a job or they

could be fired from their job where

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:

they could be disciplined for it.

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:

From the job where they could be

looked over for promotion and so on.

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:

And there's many stories of those of

these things happening and coming out.

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:

I don't want to give a shout

out to education equality.

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:

A lobby group, who's percolating

these stories and they're well

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:

worth a visit on Instagram.

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:

If you're on them and have a look at some

of the stories that teachers and parents

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:

are sending in of the harm that is caused

by religious instruction in schools.

475

:

And if parents and students understood

what religion actually meant in their

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:

child's primary school, isn't religious

education, it is religious instruction.

477

:

Perhaps it would make a difference.

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:

And as you can see from the Irish

Catholics interpretation of the

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:

Children's ombudsman survey.

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:

They are masters.

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:

I presented information

in a particular manner.

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:

And by leaving at psychology and drama

and by failing to define religion.

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:

At best their headline is misleading.

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:

Perhaps to borrow their own phrase, it

better, it might be better described.

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:

As sin.

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:

By omission.

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:

So there you have my

first episode for 24, 25.

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:

I always like to talk about this

topic and if you have any comments

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:

yourself and you're interested

in contribution in any way to the

490

:

discussion I am still on Twitter or axes.

491

:

I.

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:

I do feel I want to leave it.

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:

I'm what I am trying to do is I'm setting,

I've set up a newsletter which I'd

494

:

love you to subscribe to on shaw.net/.

495

:

Slash subscribe where I'm going to

be, giving people, subscribers the

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:

opportunity to talk a little bit more.

497

:

I also get bonus and material for

anyone who's subscribed to the

498

:

newsletter, which is I look for

a newspaper articles that appear.

499

:

And in the media.

500

:

That I find really interesting and

I get some comments on them, but

501

:

it's also interesting to know for

you to maybe have a look yourself.

502

:

And I also give because I have

a background in technology.

503

:

I also give some technology tips

which you can have a look at, and

504

:

there are also on the YouTube channel.

505

:

The podcast is no longer

going to be on YouTube.

506

:

I've decided after looking at the views.

507

:

For all the effort of videoing myself

and actually having to be dressed.

508

:

What I do this in, in, in decent

clothes, I am dressed when I'm doing

509

:

this as a podcast, just for the record.

510

:

It'd be probably wasn't Worth the effort.

511

:

So you're going to have to go

back to listening to the podcast.

512

:

Anyway, that is it for me.

513

:

Love to hear from you.

514

:

As I said, please subscribe on

onshore.net/subscribe or go to your

515

:

favorite podcasts and talk format.

516

:

And please leave a review.

517

:

If you've enjoyed this episode because

it helps other teachers and other

518

:

people find, add the podcast more easy.

519

:

That's it for me from this week.

520

:

Thanks so much for this thing.

521

:

All the very, very best bye-bye.

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About the Podcast

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis