Episode 23

Interview 23: Muireann Sadlier

In this podcast episode, I interview Muireann Sadlier, the Director of Cyber Smarties Ireland, discussing the importance of keeping children safe online while teaching them to use the internet positively. Sadlier shares her extensive background in education, focusing on wellbeing and behaviour, and introduces Cyber Smarties, an app designed for primary schools that supports children's social skills and online safety.

We explore alarming statistics on children's online experiences, the challenges of managing screen time, and the need for proactive strategies to teach children responsible online behavior. Cyber Smarties offers a monitored environment for children to interact safely and learn positive social interactions. The discussion also touches on broader themes of technology's role in education and parenting, and the potential benefits of using apps like Cyber Smarties as part of a comprehensive approach to digital literacy and well-being.

You can find our more about Cyber Smarties Ireland here: https://cybersmarties.ie/

Transcript
Simon:

Hello.

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Hello.

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You are very welcome to if I were the

minister for education from onshaw.

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net, this is Simon Lewis.

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And first of all, a very

happy new year to everyone.

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I am very excited because my first.

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podcast of 2025 is an interview.

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I haven't done an interview for quite

some time, but I'm delighted to be

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joined by Miren Sadlier, who is the

director of Cyber Smarties Ireland.

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And I'm going to let Miren introduce

herself in a minute or two, but

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for those of you who are interested

in keeping children Not only safe

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online, but also to learn how to

use the internet in a positive way.

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And so on this is some, this isn't

a podcast you're going to want to

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listen to because there's some really

interesting developments there.

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And I'm hoping that I'll be able

to ask most of the questions that

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most of us all have as parents and

teachers and so on to Murren, but.

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I think the best thing to do to start off

with is to let Mirren introduce herself.

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You're very welcome to If I Were

the Minister for Education, Mirren.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you for having me.

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Not at all.

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So as I always say to my guests

without sounding like the first

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question in an interview, what

can you tell us about yourself?

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A little bit about myself, I originally

trained as a teacher like most members

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of my family, we were a teaching family,

my parents and my siblings are teachers,

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and I went to Mary I and completed

my degree in Mary I but I continued.

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with my studies as I was really

interested in well being and

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particularly in behavior and well being.

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So I did a postgraduate course in St.

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Patrick's Syndrome Chondra and it was

education of children with ASDs and I

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followed that with a postgraduate course.

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Diploma in education in Mary I and then

I did a Masters in education, focusing

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on communication and well being in

children with special educational needs.

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Particularly I worked with

children who were non verbal.

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So, a large part of my career has been

in education and I've spent 18 years

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working in a special school in Limerick.

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I had a couple of different

roles, I was acting principal.

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Thank you.

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I was acting deputy principal for a

few years and I was seconded from, I

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was seconded from the school to work

with SESS, which is a special education

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support service for a few years.

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And I did school support visits

around behavior and wellbeing.

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And then I worked for a while with

NCSC and all this has led me to

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really have a vested interest in.

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What are we doing to support

the well being needs of the

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children in our schools?

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And how can we best meet their needs?

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And so this is a wonderful, real

a new adventure in the area of

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behaviour and well being in schools.

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Fantastic.

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So I suppose what we're going to be

talking about, we'll definitely be

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talking about cyber smarties Ireland,

but in a more general sense, we're

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going to be talking about technology.

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It's one of my favorite

things to talk about.

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It's my own background as most

people listening to this would know.

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And I guess I was reading some of the

reports that are being sent out around

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digital technology and children, and

every year there's reports that come

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out from different agencies, and the

one that I was looking at this year,

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which I thought we might start off with,

it was a fact that jumped out at me,

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was a stat, it was something like 95.

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8 percent of children Aged 8 to

12 feel anxiety or stress if the

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Wi Fi is turned off in their home.

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It was a kind of a it's a finding

that kind of jumped out at me as

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I've been quite worrying in some

ways but also not surprising.

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I suppose I wouldn't mind hearing

your thoughts on that, but also was

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there any findings that you came

across that might've surprised you?

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Yeah, every year when the, these

reports are released, I find them

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quite shocking and I read them

every single time more than once.

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More than half of Irish children

reported in:

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they spend too much time online.

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And 80 percent of parents in

Ireland reported that they don't

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really know or feel confident

that their child is safe online.

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And those are amazing statistics as

well as that more than one in five

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children under the age of six have

their own smartphone, which is quite

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worrying because not all devices

have, filtration apps or Preventative

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apps or parent monitoring apps.

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And it can be difficult as well for

some parents to understand technology.

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I'm one of those parents where sometimes I

need advice on how something works or how

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to download something or fix something.

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But as we go towards the age

of eight years old with, recent

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studies of children in Ireland.

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So in the last 12 months in Ireland.

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93 percent of 8 to 12 year olds, they

own their own device, whether it's

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a smartphone or it's, I think it's

smartphones plus tablets, but when

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you're using smartphones or tablets,

it can be difficult to ensure your

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own child's safety or a child's

safety in general, which is worrying.

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A third of children.

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Can say, have stated, more than a third

of children have stated, that they do

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game online with people they don't know.

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And two thirds of children are,

have reported in the last year, that

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they were contacted by strangers

during gaming online or online.

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With at least a quarter of children

seeing something that they've

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said, or that they categorized.

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Thank you for your time.

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distressing that they don't want to

disclose to parents because I suppose

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maybe they're nervous, maybe they're

afraid they'll get into trouble.

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And a lot changed with technology since we

had the pandemic and since we had lockdown

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and we now access people far and wide.

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I never used even zoom before the,

before lockdown, I never heard of it.

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But what happened during lockdown

is that it became apparent

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through these research statistics.

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The predatory activity focusing

on Irish children increased

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by 40 percent since lockdown.

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And that is through

gaming and through chat.

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But we do have children who live

in rural areas and so gaming or

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being in contact with children in

their class through devices, keeps

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them in touch with one another.

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So there'll be, different

sides to the story or different

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ways of looking at things.

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What can be worrying is that, I'd be

the parent and I'd be the teacher.

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We, we don't know for sure.

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That was always a thing that

worried me when it comes to

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online safety for children.

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Some of the statistics are frightening.

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This is it.

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And I'm I suppose I'm coming to you

in this, not only as a teacher and a

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principal and I suppose someone who'd

been fairly well up in technology

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and education, but I, but also as

a parent, I have a 10 year old and.

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So he fits right in the middle

of those eight to 12 year olds.

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And I know he's one of the 7 percent

that doesn't have a smart device.

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And it's a constant, it's a

constant conversation where

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between myself and my wife and him

and why and all the rest of it.

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And I suppose the thing is I'm petrified

about, The time, there will be a time

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I will be giving my child a device of

some sort whether it's a, an an iPad

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or a tablet or a or even a smartphone.

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And that balance.

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Knowing that I'm essentially giving my

child potentially a weapon or without

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overdramatizing it or by not doing

so risk becoming a social pariah.

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And I guess, I, what I'm asking is

like, what would you say to parents

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like me who, I would say I'm pretty

well up, but I'm still petrified.

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I think I'm all up.

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I would have.

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I would have been in that position more

than once with our own children, and I

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really would not consider myself very

technologically aware, or whether, I

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don't feel I would have been very well

educated on technology at the time

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when I had to make those decisions.

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And I suppose, It seems to me that we're

going towards times where communication

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using devices seems to be inevitable.

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Chat forums through gaming

seems to be inevitable.

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And, even Google Classroom are

using devices for education.

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It seems to be inevitable that

children are going to be using devices.

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And I'm so banning them, restricting

them, holding it to a certain age.

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Some parents will go and

will actually feel that's the

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best thing for their child.

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And every parent is the primary

educator of their child.

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They know what's best for their child.

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But what I found What was conflicting

for me was that if I am that parent

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who does not give my child a device in

third, fourth class, fifth class, sixth

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class, they will probably end up getting

a device in first year or in the first

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few years of secondary school, but they

will not have the skills prerequisite

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to communicating using a device.

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They will not have experience of.

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What do I do if somebody says something

that I feel is inappropriate and I

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just worry now with the inevitability

of using devices, whether it could be

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unfair not to give Children a chance

to learn really important interaction

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skills and social skills if possible.

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And that's where I found cyber

smarties very interesting because it

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is endorsed by on Garda she Akona.

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And it's endorsed by UNICEF

and another organization called

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End Violence Against Children.

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And that's because it is a, an app or

a forum in which children can learn

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how to interact in a positive way.

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And also, They're safe and

they're monitored and they're not

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accessible to the general public.

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They're not accessible to any adult.

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I would have used lots of different

parent control apps and, systems

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on phones and old tablets, but my

kids always found a way around it.

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They seemed to be able to find a way.

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To disable it or to move around it

with, I suppose with cyber smarties,

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your child is guaranteed to be

safe and to learn social skills.

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So it makes it less stressful for parents.

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And as well as that, they will be able to

access a wellbeing report if they wish.

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So they'll know about what's

going on with their child.

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So let, before we get onto cyber

smarties, just to because I, I.

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I want to ask a couple of other

things to you that might might

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frame where we're going on this one.

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I, I'm interested, they're, it may be,

maybe it's just the people I surround

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myself with, or maybe it's just what

you hear in the media all the time is

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that constant battle between screen

time, like screen time has seemed to

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be this enemy of the people of enemy

of children until there's a pandemic

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or even a snowstorm . And then everyone

needs to be on screens all the time.

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And in some ways I have this battle with

myself similar to what you're saying, that

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I don't want to disadvantage children.

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Yeah, or my own child, maybe, but I'm

responsible for over 400 children in my

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school and I don't want to disadvantage

them because I know they're going to go

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into a world where if they aren't using

technology and safely and that they're

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going to be at a serious disadvantage

to everybody else around them.

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And I'm I, up until maybe, social

media came along, I would have been

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in, I would have been a massive kind

of advocate for letting children have

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access to technology as much as possible.

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But when social media became

so clever that it very quickly

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introduced children to content that

I really didn't want them accessing.

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So again, I'm talking about, what I'm

hearing from other parents like that,

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there seems to be that very quickly boys

receive, content that's quite misogynistic

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and girls receive, information that

can be, quite misogynistic, and and I,

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again it's all these things balancing

and I don't know where you stand.

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And I'm probably asking you the

same question in a different way.

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No, it's not the same question

at all because it's a discussion.

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I meet with parent groups and I meet with

school staff and we have discussions.

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And this question has come up.

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Why are we giving screens to children?

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too early or should we stay

screen free or can they not learn

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skills without using screens?

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But there's probably

two sides to every coin.

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Of course, balance is ideal and

it's fantastic and it's very

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important on so many levels.

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But some children have social anxiety

and difficulty socializing and being

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able to contact others in a safe way.

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Through a device can be quite helpful.

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There's a lot of children in

Ireland on school refusal in

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primary and secondary schools.

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And it's only through devices that

they can access their lessons or

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that they can access their friends.

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So it's actually supporting

socialization for some children and

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supporting education for some children.

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So I do understand though that some

children will some families will

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be worried about the amount of time

that children spend on screens.

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And I accept that.

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And I suppose as a parent, I'd say it

would be our own job to supervise that

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or monitor that in some way taking into

account that parents are extremely busy.

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Some parents work from home and they

have to do zoom calls late in the

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evening and all that kind of stuff.

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But there's two different sides to it.

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There's so much education online.

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There's so much socialization

and positive experiences and

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positive interaction online.

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And then we can equally access

all of that not online as well.

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So there's no easy answer, but

I suppose balance would be key.

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Exactly.

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I want to look at cyber smarties cause

I, I want to try and, I suppose it's

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very hard to do it on a podcast because

we can't see it, but we'll do our best.

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So, maybe we'll look into cyber smarties

and maybe tell us a little bit about

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What it is at its most basic, and we

can delve deeper into it after that.

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Absolutely.

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So Cyber Smarties is an app that's

being used in primary schools in

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Ireland and around the world, but we'll

talk about Cyber Smarties Ireland.

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So it's an app that's being used to help

children to develop self awareness skills,

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social skills friendship skills, and more.

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And.

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When, let's say you decide you're going

to sign up fourth class today, you would

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allow the children to log in and to use

the app if you feel like it in school,

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if you feel like it outside of school.

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Some schools allow the children

to use it for 10 minutes a day and

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different schools work differently.

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But what it does is when I

log in, if I'm the child.

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It asks me, how am I today?

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A little clear, but character does a

daily wellbeing check in and the child

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would say, I'm good or I'm only okay.

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And when they click on those buttons,

the data is collected cumulatively.

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So over 183 days, if that child attends

school 182 days now there's a significant

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amount of self self initiated wellbeing.

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material.

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A lot of the wellbeing material we have

on children can be seen to be from the

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outside assessments of observations

of this is the child saying this

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is how I am today and this is why.

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And it's broken down into so many levels.

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So one would be psychological

and mental health and wellbeing.

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One would be social and friendship

skills, health and wellbeing.

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One would be physiological

or sensory health and being.

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So that's one thing that happens.

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Children are allowed to message their

friends within the classroom setting.

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So not anybody outside

the classroom setting.

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And so they can safely

interact with one another.

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And that's it.

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That is monitored by a human monitoring

staff member, which is why it was endorsed

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by the Garda Síochána, because any

inappropriate attempts at using language,

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there's a filtration system for language,

so it won't allow abuse of language.

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But if there was something that

was deemed to be veiled intent that

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would be picked up by the monitor.

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So children are in an environment

where they won't be subject to

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sustained negative interaction.

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Or negative content.

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There's beautiful little

videos and cartoons.

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They're all got to do with they're all

linked with well being and education.

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And there's a little fun zone with

memes, cartoons, being and resilience

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content, and gaming, which kids love.

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And every single one of the games

has been analysed by a team who have

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linked it with the Irish curriculum.

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So, if you decided to allow children

to use some of the games, you'll

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be able to link it with the maths

curriculum because there's a document.

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with every single game so the parents

and teachers will know which strands

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and strand units of the mathematics

curriculum are accessed when the

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child is playing pirate attack or

whatever game they choose to play.

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What happens here with cyber smarties is

because it's fully monitored and endorsed

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by UNICEF and the guards because it's

fully monitored the children are safe.

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There is no adult that can

communicate with any child.

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Not a parent, not a teacher, nobody.

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And children learn interaction

skills and self advocacy skills

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as they go along using the app.

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And what we've seen is, since September,

in the schools in Munster, we've seen

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that Negative psychological well being

has decreased, so there's more positive

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psychological well being, the data

shows, through different data pockets.

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And we can give that data to the

schools, saying this is, these are

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the statistics for this class, these

are the statistics for this child.

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And what we found is a lot of

children who live in the country

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continue to interact over the

Christmas period with one another.

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It's 8 or 9 o'clock at night, it's not

accessible when it's time to rest, and it

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switches itself back on in the morning.

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So if a child woke up and had a phone

in their, under their pillow, they

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wouldn't be able to use the app.

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It promotes good sleep,

health, and well being.

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And the aim, short term, is to show

children what it's like to communicate

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with one another and to be let loose.

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However, it's monitored so things

are picked up and reported and there

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can be corrective actions such as a

temporary freeze or notifying you.

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User 526 in fourth class has attempted

to say the following words to user X.

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That will have been blocked,

but you'll be made aware.

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And then, of course, teachers have

asked what do we do if something tricky

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emerges, and we have to deal with that.

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We have so many resource materials that

are all linked with the Irish curriculum.

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We have links with the SPHE curriculum.

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We've written a lovely document linked

with the Irish Digital Literacy Framework.

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So, you can say, see in your planning

or in your school improvement plan, or

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if you were doing school self evaluation

on well being, you will actually

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have statistics to show improvement.

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So, it's quite a, it's quite

a revolutionary app, really.

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Considering that it's

safe is really important.

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That was really important.

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Yeah I'm just as I'm listening to

you because I suppose I'm trying to

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learn a little bit as I go in my head

that it feels like, okay, we have

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an inevitability that we're going

to be giving a child a smart device.

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Now, I know some parents might listen

and go, no, my child, I'm never going to

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get them until they're 16 or whatever.

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That's realistically, I think

there's almost like this.

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16 is an important age because.

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Yeah.

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And if you've had no experience.

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Not having the experience of knowing how

to cope with and manage a lot of input or

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communicative attempts, people attempting

to communicate with you, whether you want

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to hear from them or not, or children

being contacted by others in the other

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class in fourth year or third year.

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It does happen.

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And, Yeah, I think it's

also unrealistic, isn't it?

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That, that It's like I think we all

have, I think when, at every age, we

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have a child who will say he won't be

doing this or she won't be doing this.

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Their child is born, they won't

be watching TV until, and then all

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of a sudden, or they won't be x,

y, or z, or whatever it might be.

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The field of online safety and the

discussion of online safety, it can

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be a difficult discussion because

it's lovely to talk about children

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interacting and learning skills.

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I felt when I first became

involved with Cyber Smarties.

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Maybe they don't have devices

in third and fourth class.

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Maybe this is a chance for those

children to learn new skills, before

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they'd even developed poor skills.

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And I know through national studies

and international studies that

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severe or abusive bullying in post

primary schools can be experienced

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by up to one in five children.

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And so, having had a chance to learn

better through Etiquette or netiquette

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could be quite valuable, and it's

difficult to talk about predators,

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but there are predators accessing

children through gaming and chat.

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And we don't for sure know who may have

contacted our children unless we can find

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out or have a good discussion with them.

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And it's not to fear monger, but

they're very important issues.

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And there are.

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post primary schools who are

experiencing, school refusal or

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children engaging in self harm because

of bullying and abuse through devices.

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So having the discussion around Okay,

we can ban devices, but at some point,

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young people will access technology

because it seems to be much more prevalent

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than it was when I was in school.

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Nobody had a mobile phone when I was

in school, and I'm so happy about that.

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But in, internationally and

in the world still, today.

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And it's a horrible statistic, but

internationally in the world today

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in 14 and 15 year olds, the leading

cause of death is self induced and

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a lot of it is linked with bullying.

365

:

And so wising up and having the

frightening discussion, or Trying to

366

:

see what we can do to put children in a

position where maybe they have a more self

367

:

advocative role, or maybe they can learn

more resilience, compassion, and empathy.

368

:

And this is why I found it fascinating

and became involved, because I was

369

:

already Doing work that involved that

kind of material and delivering webinars

370

:

and seminars with the same goal.

371

:

But an app has a much further reach and

it generalizes skills quite quickly.

372

:

I know that when the school subscribed

and I met with staff, they were so nice

373

:

and supportive and had so many questions.

374

:

One was, how do we tell

them how to use it?

375

:

And I said, Oh, you just let them

log in because they will figure

376

:

the whole thing out really quickly.

377

:

And they, in order to have friends or

to link with somebody in your class as

378

:

a child under the age of 12 in a primary

school in Ireland, you have to send them

379

:

a compliment out of a list of compliments.

380

:

So it's like a friend

request with the reason why.

381

:

And that's the beginning of producing

an environment where A, children are

382

:

safe, but B, they are in a position

where they are exposed to ongoing

383

:

and sustained positive interaction.

384

:

It really has been making a difference

in the schools that have subscribed.

385

:

The statistics show it.

386

:

So yeah, and not getting a phone for

a long time, that will help for a

387

:

while, not, but it won't last forever.

388

:

And so where and when do

we teach these skills?

389

:

That's what I began to ask.

390

:

That's the thing that I'm thinking,

that the phone or the device.

391

:

Is fine until you put

not fine things on it.

392

:

So if, and I think, and this is me

hypothesizing a little bit here.

393

:

We have, a child is inevitably going

to get a device at some point, whatever

394

:

point the parent decides that is.

395

:

And inevitably the first thing the

child just wants to do is download.

396

:

And some of those apps will be,

it will be let's say Snapchat

397

:

or whatever kicks, whatever kids

are using these days or discord.

398

:

And in some ways, what this is, it's

giving them the same experience Of a

399

:

social platform, but with it almost

like a safety net to so so they can,

400

:

because children will inevitably, and

this is a complete, completely away from

401

:

technology, children are when they're

developing and as they're growing,

402

:

they're going to be experimenting with

their behaviors and what they can, what

403

:

boundaries they can push, what or can

I try this interaction and see where

404

:

this gets me, and if you do that on the

likes of Snapchat or Facebook or any of

405

:

those things, that's a permanent moment.

406

:

Thanks.

407

:

Possibly a permanent problem for you as

the child or the victim of whatever you've

408

:

done, let's say, whereas with this app,

it sounds like you have almost a safety

409

:

net where you can, you could, you can

try whatever you want, but there's humans

410

:

safe, humans there to help you keep safe.

411

:

Would that be, is that, am

I describing that fairly?

412

:

So, if I'm a child in fourth class,

and I decide to send, you're a child

413

:

in fourth class, and I decide to send

you a message saying you're stupid.

414

:

Hey, you are stupid.

415

:

I can type it out.

416

:

It will, the app will highlight

the word stupid and say, This

417

:

word may upset your friends.

418

:

Please find another word.

419

:

And so there's a negative

word filtration system.

420

:

And some kids find ways of attempting to

get around that, which is human nature.

421

:

We are solution seeking creatures.

422

:

And this is really why it's

important to have these chats.

423

:

So I might say your s space, t space,

u space, so it may pop through then.

424

:

So the next thing that happens is that

there's a human monitor, a person who

425

:

is paid to monitor the content daily.

426

:

And so that should be

picked up and flagged.

427

:

And other than that,

now that will be done.

428

:

And that's why it's an endorsed app.

429

:

You also have the option to red flag that

message and a note goes to the monitor.

430

:

Simon has red flagged a message at

five to six on such a date and this

431

:

is the message sender and receiver.

432

:

Now, obviously we don't know the

name of any child that's Not allowed

433

:

do so we have reference numbers.

434

:

So user five, two, so you can red

flag a message and it will be picked

435

:

up, but the monitor will pick it up.

436

:

And so here's where we look

into, of course, the first couple

437

:

of weeks kids try all sorts.

438

:

And so it's lively.

439

:

And we do say that to schools,

of course they do, because

440

:

they're experimenting with it.

441

:

But this is the first app I've

ever known where you're looking

442

:

at personal responsibility, a

little bit of accountability, and

443

:

awareness of the effects of online

content or attempted messaging.

444

:

on another person.

445

:

And of course, if we have

kids saying, no, I didn't.

446

:

You did.

447

:

Here's the screenshot, but accountability

and personal responsibility are

448

:

vital social skills for us to learn.

449

:

And so it just doesn't

happen that a child.

450

:

Can be bullied or subjected to

inappropriate content using the app.

451

:

It's a good chance for them to learn

skills, both me learning skills about how

452

:

I comport myself, and maybe me learning

to have the courage to red flag a message.

453

:

And I work with the monitors and we

discuss findings and There's sometimes

454

:

messages between user X and user Y

saying, I'd like to put a red flag on

455

:

it, but I'd be worried in case there

has to be a discussion around it.

456

:

I'm not sure what to do about it.

457

:

What do you think?

458

:

Those discussions are very

important discussions as well.

459

:

Those are social skills.

460

:

But if it seemed that it needed to

be flagged, of course, it's flagged.

461

:

And so what's happening is, The

subscribing schools are finding maybe

462

:

we seem to be in need CPD on building

self awareness or the mechanics

463

:

of social skills or something.

464

:

And then Cyber Smarties, we've developed a

bank of resources that are really helpful.

465

:

And we also have teacher courses.

466

:

So it's covered from every angle.

467

:

So I think it's a really good idea to

consider it and to look into it or to look

468

:

at the website or to look at the reports

or the white paper or to just become

469

:

aware of what it is and how it's working.

470

:

I'm amazed by the improvements

in the subscribing schools,

471

:

even in the last four months.

472

:

This is, sounding like a really,

Interesting app that I think parents

473

:

will probably be thinking about if

they're considering buying their child,

474

:

their first device and knowing that,

their child is probably going to want

475

:

to socialize with their, with other

children that rather than saying you,

476

:

obviously you'll have to have parental

controls 'cause cyber Smartsheet is

477

:

are not going to stop children from

downloading other social media apps.

478

:

But what I'm thinking of is this app

might mean that there's no need for

479

:

children to download some of the more,

some of the less controlled apps.

480

:

Let's say the ones that are quite da

that can be potentially dangerous.

481

:

Would am I thinking along

the right lines there?

482

:

Yes.

483

:

Exact.

484

:

Matter comes up when I meet with

parent groups this question comes up.

485

:

So we subscribe, we, if we get our

child a tablet and the school subscribes

486

:

and we are going to allow them to

use Cyber Smarties, are they safe?

487

:

Yes, they're safe while they're

using the Cyber Smarties app.

488

:

They can chat and game and watch videos.

489

:

However, if you're going to allow

them to download WhatsApp or to

490

:

play games on the PlayStation 5.

491

:

That's a totally different matter.

492

:

The safety of the children and

the age appropriateness of what

493

:

they're doing, that really has

to be thought about at home.

494

:

And so, we have, had discussions around if

they want to send something inappropriate,

495

:

they can just say, Message me on WhatsApp.

496

:

If the child is under 12, probably,

maybe they, it would be better if they

497

:

didn't have a WhatsApp account, or

they're not supposed to have social

498

:

media accounts under the age of 13.

499

:

But of course, I know parents are

really Busy and I was a parent who

500

:

downloaded parent controls on all

the devices and they do really help

501

:

I know that there are Ways of a child

needing you to give permission for

502

:

them to download a new app So I would

have had to approve the downloading of

503

:

a new app on my child's device But I

actually had to learn how to do that.

504

:

I had to be taught how to do that.

505

:

And then also be attentive to, if

I'm cooking the dinner and I'm busy

506

:

and they see that I get a phone call,

and I'm busy with the phone call and

507

:

they start tapping me and saying,

mom, I'm just sending permission.

508

:

This is just to say, no, wait,

I'll research it and I'll see.

509

:

And so, yeah, they're protected.

510

:

In this place to game

and to message online.

511

:

And there's a post primary version

as well that's very fantastic, that's

512

:

called Hopoko, which is being launched.

513

:

But no, it's not going to, it's not

going to generalize on, on, on a device.

514

:

It's an app that you can be guaranteed

your child is safe on, but if you're

515

:

going to allow them to use the Xbox,

the PlayStation, or other manners

516

:

to communicate with one another I

don't know what they, I wouldn't

517

:

be able to say what they would do.

518

:

They wouldn't be protected.

519

:

Exactly.

520

:

Yeah, I think it's funny when you were

saying what your own kids were doing.

521

:

They always know when you're too busy

to to be able to be concentrated.

522

:

How likely and then how difficult

is it for me to get into their

523

:

device to delete the thing?

524

:

Or does that mean, because I think

one time I'd given permission.

525

:

So it was just re downloaded

after I deleted it.

526

:

I wouldn't be as.

527

:

technologically aware as you,

but I know that for me, it was

528

:

exhausting and tiring and not a

fun experience for me as a parent.

529

:

Quite a worrying thing.

530

:

And when they move on to social media and

have accounts, that's always a frightening

531

:

experience because you just don't know.

532

:

And I am aware that even when

my kids weren't allowed to have

533

:

smartphones, they had the old phones.

534

:

Their best friend had a

smartphone and they were looking

535

:

at content on that phone.

536

:

So it's quite it's quite an

unmanageable feat for us as parents,

537

:

but there's only so much we can do.

538

:

We can be vigilant.

539

:

We can be aware of, filtration apps.

540

:

We can be aware of parental

controls, approving things,

541

:

physically managing devices.

542

:

Or looking into an app

like Cyber Smarties.

543

:

Exactly.

544

:

It's just not the world we

grew up in at all anymore.

545

:

I know, and I'm it's funny because another

thing I've noticed, and this is just a,

546

:

anecdotal more than anything else, is that

whenever I've run, internet safety kind

547

:

of things for parents or, we try and talk

to parents about smartphone use, because

548

:

all schools are, being asked to talk to

parents about that and, you put words out.

549

:

It's funny, the only not, I'm not

saying absolutely 100 percent the

550

:

only parents, but the vast majority

of parents who attend these things

551

:

are parents who probably don't need

to attend them or they're, not nobody,

552

:

everybody needs to, or they've already

decided you're not getting their kid

553

:

a phone or whatever it might be there.

554

:

And you're trying to get, I suppose what

you're trying to do is get to parents

555

:

who are a little bit more, less savvy

and don't know what their kids are doing.

556

:

And I think even to, it's, it

sounds like there are the majority

557

:

of parents aren't going to be able

to prevent their child accessing.

558

:

A smart device, whether it's their own

child's or their friends who has one.

559

:

Just impossible now.

560

:

It just feels impossible to

manage the situation now.

561

:

And there's some statistics

available with parents as well.

562

:

Yeah, I think I might've

referenced it already, but.

563

:

This year, 80 percent of parents in

Ireland said they do not feel confident

564

:

that their child is always safe online.

565

:

And yet it's so hard to avoid

the online or the digital world.

566

:

I would have been the not at all

savvy parent and I found it, I

567

:

found I could never keep up or

understand what I should do next.

568

:

And I don't think I've ever met

with a parent group or a parent

569

:

association where there wasn't a very.

570

:

It was a very we had parents

of very opposite opinions, no

571

:

phones, no screens, not needed.

572

:

They're going to get one in

post primary at some point.

573

:

They'll get confirmation money.

574

:

What happens if they just

don't have skills developed?

575

:

The discussion there's such

a variety of viewpoints.

576

:

But in the end, I just feel the children

are accessing devices younger and younger.

577

:

And it's best to talk about it, regardless

of our views, regardless of our feelings

578

:

and our views and our fears, it's best

to have the difficult discussions.

579

:

Exactly.

580

:

So this whole campaign to keep

childhood smartphone free or

581

:

whatever it's called at the moment.

582

:

That seems to from what I'm hearing, it

seems to be one of these things of just

583

:

pushing a tin down the road or kicking

a tin down the road for an inevitable

584

:

It's just pushing it down the road.

585

:

And the idea of giving them

skills is what's, is what

586

:

we're really talking about.

587

:

And I know that there's a lot

of talks about smartphone free.

588

:

and not using, devices at all.

589

:

But then we run into the post primary

group who run into significant

590

:

difficulty in first and second year

because there seems to be, there's

591

:

a lot of children reporting, I

don't know how to manage the online

592

:

situation, the messages I'm getting.

593

:

The pictures that you're putting up

of me, videos being shared about me.

594

:

I don't know that's going

to solve the problem.

595

:

It'll temporarily pause it.

596

:

And I know when we talk about, going back

to my behavior management background.

597

:

When it comes to managing a behavior,

you can put some actions into place that

598

:

will temporarily suppress a behavior.

599

:

So, I don't give them, I've got, let's

say I have four kids in primary school.

600

:

I'm a parent, I will not give them

a smartphone, I will not give them

601

:

a device, and I will not condone

access to the online world in my home.

602

:

I mightn't have Wi Fi.

603

:

Okay.

604

:

That's absolutely acceptable.

605

:

Anybody can choose to parent

how they wish to parent.

606

:

What skills will those children have when

they do access the online world, when it

607

:

comes to resilience and self advocacy?

608

:

I just feel like when we talk in the

years I've talked about behavior.

609

:

You will only suppress it temporarily.

610

:

Yes, you don't it's very difficult to

totally extinguish your behavior, but

611

:

you can suppress something But we're best

putting rather than reactive strategies

612

:

putting proactive strategies in place

Giving children a chance to develop skills

613

:

Because confiscating phones in schools,

there's never been a higher time, rate

614

:

of purchase of secondhand phones online.

615

:

So you got to learn the phone

and the phone you hand up.

616

:

And I would have done

the same as a teenager.

617

:

Of course I would have wanted, I'll do it.

618

:

And I'd probably have been selling them.

619

:

Anyway, we'd have done a

good business there together.

620

:

It's not.

621

:

It's not that, it's not as preventative.

622

:

It's temporarily preventative.

623

:

Yeah I noticed, when COVID and the

world shut down, that This the, when

624

:

children didn't go to school for, about

a year and a half, there were certain

625

:

things they didn't get to try out that

was, that were like age appropriate.

626

:

I hate that term, but do you know and

natural human interactions that you

627

:

try when you're five or you try when

you're eight and you're seeing some

628

:

of those things happening, 12 year

olds doing things that you try at 10.

629

:

Or eight year olds doing things that they

should have been doing maybe at six that

630

:

just don't fit with their age anymore.

631

:

Like . And maybe there's a connection

there, that if you don't give the children

632

:

the chance to do risky things, let's say.

633

:

. On in a in a risk free place.

634

:

. Then if they get a.

635

:

When will that reemerge?

636

:

Because it does reemerge at some point.

637

:

I know that, yeah, it's part of normal

socialization and human development.

638

:

I know a newborn interprets the

world first through their senses,

639

:

but very quickly, a young baby,

a very young baby will socialize.

640

:

We want to make our needs known

and we want to interact with others

641

:

from the very beginning of our

life and interacting using devices

642

:

is a huge and globally acceptable

now, but the safety of Children is.

643

:

It's a constant discussion.

644

:

And I suppose for me, I was just

delighted to become involved in with

645

:

cyber smarties because I'd always worked

with education and special education

646

:

and behavior and wellbeing, and I

thought, what about everybody else?

647

:

Because I love my work and I always

enjoyed it, and I always will.

648

:

But what about everybody else?

649

:

How do we keep them socializing?

650

:

Teach them how to be resilient, empathic,

advocate for themselves, form opinions

651

:

learn, probably through an adverse

experience, learn how to take personal

652

:

responsibility when we have misbehaved.

653

:

We've all misbehaved.

654

:

said and done things

you shouldn't have done.

655

:

It's, shaming and blaming and isolating

is not the best way to go about

656

:

business if we're if we're dealing with

a developing and learning child, but

657

:

experiencing things, being accountable,

being responsible and learning a better

658

:

way of managing that skill, that's

what really intrigued me about the app.

659

:

I've watched children become

more empathic and more.

660

:

Compassionate towards one another, and

I've seen, I've, with, I've had meetings

661

:

with the monitor, sounds funny to say

the human monitor, but I've had meetings

662

:

with the monitor, and the reports

would, the reports generally involve

663

:

the children are checking in more on

one another, but they're also saying,

664

:

I can't believe XYZ sent me a request.

665

:

They're being so nice to me.

666

:

I have more friends than I thought.

667

:

And that is really music to my ears

because involvement, community,

668

:

a sense of belonging, acceptance.

669

:

Not just fitting in, but having a sense

of belonging and ownership over our

670

:

future behavior is really important.

671

:

So I think, I suppose the Cyber

Smarties app and the post primary

672

:

Hopoko version give young people a

chance, the best chance to be in an

673

:

online place where they're safe, where

they can, Interact, and they do get

674

:

support and, corrective action when

things aren't going so well as well.

675

:

It's not about isolating, excluding.

676

:

This happened on this date, it's

not so nice, we might address

677

:

it and then we try again.

678

:

It's just, so far it's been lovely

and I've really enjoyed the work.

679

:

And I do feel as a parent,

I wish that this existed.

680

:

15 years ago, I'd say, I really

would have loved it might have

681

:

it might have helped a lot.

682

:

Like I do like how it does it forces,

children to say something nice about

683

:

the person they were, they want to

interact with and that's seen by, and

684

:

it starts things off in a positive way.

685

:

And I almost forgot to say, you

reminded me there, Simon, one of

686

:

the most frequently used buttons

on the Cyber Smarties app is a

687

:

little button called cheer me up.

688

:

And when you press the cheer me up

button, if you're a subscribing child,

689

:

the nice comments that other children

have made about you come onto your screen.

690

:

So if you're having a down day and

I said, I want to be your friend

691

:

because you're a good listener.

692

:

And somebody else said, I

want to be your friend because

693

:

you're really good at sports.

694

:

Somebody else says, I want to be your

friend because you're a funny guy.

695

:

Those comments come up.

696

:

So I know that.

697

:

Families report they've pressed the

cheer me up button, is that bad?

698

:

No, it's great.

699

:

Remind yourself why people like you,

this is what we want in CyberSmarties.

700

:

That's a really nice idea.

701

:

It's just such a nice idea.

702

:

Yeah, absolutely.

703

:

So look, I, we've actually been

speaking for quite some time.

704

:

I could talk more about it.

705

:

I can talk for three days.

706

:

Fantastic.

707

:

I can do three days.

708

:

And I've really, it's really made me

think a lot even about my own parenting

709

:

and about, as a, as an education,

because this is a conversation that

710

:

schools are going to be having a lot

this year as, the I don't know if she'll

711

:

be the minister for very much longer,

but it seems to be in a crusade of

712

:

Norma Foley's to tackle smartphones.

713

:

But I feel that she's may, I've always

believed she may have been shooting in the

714

:

wrong direction, really, in a way that.

715

:

The target really isn't the actual

device, it's what's on the device.

716

:

And this has really made me think

a little bit more about how what,

717

:

rather than trying to kick the tin

down the road, that we should be

718

:

tackling, what an inevitability of

this generation and probably the past

719

:

generation, which we may have messed

up by not doing anything sooner.

720

:

But we but I think that's something

that, we will have to think about.

721

:

The first reaction you had to

the smartphone free or whatever,

722

:

strategies they might, you'd have

been selling and, secondhand phones

723

:

and I would have had a burner phone.

724

:

So there's ways around those and what

we're aiming at is teaching skills,

725

:

but I suppose this just is a chance to

do things a little more differently.

726

:

It's forward thinking, it's safe,

it's, young children have a much

727

:

more plastic brain than you or I.

728

:

As fabulous as we are,

they're more suggestible.

729

:

They'll form new neuroplastic patterns

in their thinking where they expect to

730

:

be spoken to nicely, learn to advocate

for themselves if they're not, and become

731

:

used to receiving and giving compliments

and Accessing content that's educational,

732

:

but it's focused on well being.

733

:

And that's a really important

idea, I think, really.

734

:

Absolutely, I think so.

735

:

So, I always ask my guests on

the podcast what they would do.

736

:

If they were the Minister for

Education, you've basically

737

:

got one thing that you can do.

738

:

It doesn't have to be related to

internet safety, it doesn't have

739

:

to be related to social media, it

doesn't have anything like that.

740

:

But if you could change one

thing about the primary education

741

:

system, what would it be?

742

:

I feel it would be linked with well being

and behavior because that has been an area

743

:

of interest for me for so, so, so long.

744

:

And the one thing I've always

found difficult was pinpointing

745

:

and assessing well being because

it's such a difficult thing to do.

746

:

So I would recommend that.

747

:

an app like Cyber Smarties be used even

just for a period of time so that you

748

:

can assess well being when you receive

the well being reports in your school.

749

:

And I, that really would be focused

on the, the needs and the rights

750

:

of children in primary education.

751

:

But I also feel it would be nice

to address well being for the

752

:

OWL teachers and SNAs as well,

because it is an exhausting role.

753

:

It's a multifaceted role.

754

:

You're wearing lots of different hats.

755

:

To do the job well, we have to care

about those who are in our caseload

756

:

and that can be stressful as well.

757

:

So if I was a minister and I could.

758

:

Wave a magic wand, it would be

well being for all, somehow, with

759

:

a measurable way of understanding.

760

:

Are we helping you there, the

teachers to do your job better,

761

:

the SNAs to do their job better.

762

:

Being assessment for children

Would be the magic wand.

763

:

I'd like to wave very good.

764

:

It's been absolutely fantastic

talking to you, Maren.

765

:

If people are interested in

accessing more about cyber smart

766

:

cities, Ireland, would you?

767

:

What's the best way for

them to get into contact?

768

:

You can get in touch by going,

excuse me, looking into the website.

769

:

It's www.

770

:

cybersmarties.

771

:

ie.

772

:

You could email marin at cybersmarties.

773

:

ie.

774

:

You'll find a contact email and

a contact phone number on the

775

:

website, but essentially www.

776

:

cybersmarties.

777

:

ie and don't hesitate as a parent

or as a school staff member to reach

778

:

out and ask any question, however,

big or small, and we'd be more

779

:

than happy to help out in any way.

780

:

Fantastic.

781

:

Thank you so much, Mirren.

782

:

It's been an absolute

pleasure talking to you.

783

:

Thanks for listening to me.

784

:

It's been a joy.

785

:

Thank you.

786

:

And I hope you've enjoyed this

interview between myself and

787

:

Murren from Cyprus Marci's Arland.

788

:

I came into this interview,

really wearing two hats.

789

:

One as a teacher who has, is, has an

interest in educational technology and

790

:

a background in educational technology.

791

:

But also as a parent of a child.

792

:

Who is eventually probably going to

be given as smart as they probably

793

:

will be given a smart device.

794

:

I'm still holding on.

795

:

I'm one of the 7% that was

mentioned earlier that hasn't.

796

:

Given my child a smart vice I'm so scared.

797

:

Of what could happen.

798

:

But this conversation has put me in,

It gives me some questions to consider,

799

:

my child hasn't engaged in any social

media or social experience online.

800

:

And am I putting him at a disadvantage?

801

:

He's not allowed to charge.

802

:

When he's playing games,

he's in a, barely got a game.

803

:

Game he on he, he plays super Mario.

804

:

And Minecraft Bush, there's no

kind of interactions that out and

805

:

he doesn't even want to do that.

806

:

There's no kind of pressure

on me, in that regard.

807

:

But I'm I putting them under

a disadvantage when you

808

:

know, most of his classmates.

809

:

Are chatting away.

810

:

Online.

811

:

And learning how to chat.

812

:

Or are they learning how to

trash, is anyone helping them?

813

:

I'm asking those two questions,

is it, I'm what I'm seeing is what

814

:

marina and cyber smarter kids does

is it provides this platform which

815

:

gives the children the opportunity.

816

:

To learn how to engage in social media.

817

:

So in a way, in a sense, I'm after the

question of, am I doing the right Tang by.

818

:

Having no social media engagement.

819

:

And trying to teach them in our own

way about how you socialize while

820

:

online, by my own social media

interactions and talking to them

821

:

about who I'm talking to online and

how I'm talking to people online.

822

:

Modeling respectful

engagements and things of that.

823

:

But again, he doesn't see

any of that dizzy and so on.

824

:

So there's a lot of, a lot of

questions I have to ask myself.

825

:

I'm not.

826

:

And.

827

:

What is the bond?

828

:

Is it is.

829

:

Is it better?

830

:

That he has that idea that he can

interact with his peers in a sort of

831

:

a walled garden where there is no.

832

:

Danger of predators.

833

:

That's a.

834

:

And outsiders.

835

:

And the fact that.

836

:

It's filtered very

strongly and by a human.

837

:

And so on so that if anything

does go wrong, that there's

838

:

lessons that can be learned.

839

:

So, it's a question I'm asking

because the other side of this.

840

:

Is the other option.

841

:

There's two other options.

842

:

One is we continue with this

banning of smart devices.

843

:

Until children are a certain age.

844

:

And, I'm not quite sure.

845

:

That's.

846

:

That's a possible, like at the

moment, I don't think there's

847

:

any parent in the country.

848

:

That doesn't know that it's, buying a

smart device for their child is a good

849

:

idea, but yet 93% of parents have done it.

850

:

Simply how do you get from 93% of

parents buying their eight year olds?

851

:

And devices to it being illegal.

852

:

I think there's, it's a question.

853

:

I'm not saying that's not a good option.

854

:

I think it, it is possible.

855

:

I Ave to go.

856

:

But I think the last option.

857

:

So the third option is to

continue doing nothing.

858

:

Which is what we've been doing

for the last number of years.

859

:

I know there's a few.

860

:

Little voluntary schemes, which I

don't think really have any impact.

861

:

If we're going to.

862

:

Make it illegal or do something like that.

863

:

That has to come from a

national a national strategy.

864

:

It has to come from the social

media companies themselves.

865

:

I know Australia have said I've

given social media companies a year.

866

:

And to ensure dash under

sixteens, don't use social media.

867

:

It's an interesting experiment.

868

:

I think people will be watching

how that kind of works out.

869

:

Social media companies, I imagine.

870

:

And I'm not saying this.

871

:

I think their goal is to make

as much money as possible.

872

:

And I would say a huge chunk of their

money comes from advertising to children.

873

:

If I lash my son, play a game on my

phone, every minute and ad comes up

874

:

on the screen because I, we don't, he

doesn't, if he plays one of those free

875

:

games, it's ODS every few minutes and

it's trying to sell them another game

876

:

or trying to sell them a, that kind of

thing it's usually seems to be selling,

877

:

or if he's watching something on YouTube.

878

:

Every few minutes, there's an

odd trying to sell something so

879

:

I can imagine if you cut off.

880

:

Advertising or social

media for under sixteens.

881

:

That's going to take a huge chunk

of income from these social media

882

:

companies, but for the greater good, is

that something that we should be doing?

883

:

So.

884

:

It's a lot of questions I have

left from this conversation.

885

:

I've really, it's really made me think,

and I'm still thinking as I'm, as I,

886

:

A few days after talking to marina.

887

:

As I'm recording this conclusion and.

888

:

I am.

889

:

Drawn.

890

:

Slightly towards what she's trying

to, what's trying to be achieved.

891

:

Do we need like a D inevitably

people will use social media?

892

:

I don't think social

media is going to go away.

893

:

I don't think how use

it is going to go away.

894

:

A.

895

:

It's human interaction after all, but

it's human interaction behind a veil.

896

:

And, depending on the social

media platform, that can be very

897

:

toxic or it can be very useful.

898

:

So it's like comparing

Twitter or X at the moment.

899

:

It's very toxic because of the anonymous.

900

:

Sort of nature because of the the lack

of any filter in of any hate speech

901

:

and any hate speech that happens tends

not to get picked up on or monitored.

902

:

That kind of thing, or it could be

something like a positive place.

903

:

Like an understanding Dennis is

particularly positive, but I'm picking

904

:

LinkedIn as an example where you

aren't anonymous, you are yourself and

905

:

conversations tend to be professional and.

906

:

I think a lot of people.

907

:

If we look at the way people use.

908

:

Social media.

909

:

As adults.

910

:

If it's LinkedIn.

911

:

At getting jobs, a lot of people

got jobs off LinkedIn, which

912

:

is a social media platform.

913

:

A lot of people now.

914

:

Start relationships through

social medias platforms like

915

:

dating apps and things like that.

916

:

And do we need to prepare our children?

917

:

For that future?

918

:

I'm.

919

:

Part of me is thinking.

920

:

We maybe we should do we use

a safe platform, like cyber

921

:

smarter kids to do that.

922

:

Maybe we should.

923

:

Or do we teach lessons in theory?

924

:

I don't know.

925

:

I'm, we always say that it's

better to do things practically.

926

:

So I don't know.

927

:

I don't know.

928

:

I'm as I say, I'm left

with those three questions.

929

:

Do we either go down the road of banning?

930

:

Do we go there into the road of education?

931

:

Or do we go down the road of doing

nothing and seeing what happens?

932

:

So they're just my thoughts.

933

:

I'm really pleased.

934

:

I finally got to talk to Marie and I

think this is a conversation that we

935

:

need to keep talking about all the time.

936

:

And if you aren't talking about it

in your own school, I think it's

937

:

something you definitely should do

because by doing nothing, I think

938

:

we could be going down difficult

paths because we don't have control.

939

:

Over.

940

:

What happens?

941

:

In most children's homes at north Chaudry.

942

:

For the majority of the day, but we

do have to face the impact of what

943

:

can happen and because of social

media use and smartphone use as well.

944

:

So there's all my thoughts.

945

:

As I said, thank you

very much for listening.

946

:

Thanks so much to Murren Saudia from

cyber smarter kids for talking to me.

947

:

I really enjoyed it

and I hope you did too.

948

:

And I'll be back again very

soon with another podcast.

949

:

All the very best.

950

:

Bye-bye.

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis