Episode 3

Access Undone: The Collapse of Special Education [Episode 3]

Episode 3: Those with the greatest needs

The episode examines the troubling history of the National Council for Special Education (NCSE) and its policies, including the controversial cuts to resources and the implementation of flawed allocation models. I discuss the systematic mistreatment and exclusion of special needs children, likening it to past societal scandals.

The episode dives into statistical discrepancies and the significant hardships faced by parents and schools, questioning the integrity and effectiveness of the NCSE and related political decisions.

At the end, I call on anyone working in the NCSE, especially SENOs to tell their story. Let's hope they do.

  • 00:43 The NCSE's Role and Controversial Actions
  • 05:21 Challenges Faced by Parents and Schools
  • 14:43 The Set Allocation Model and Its Flaws
  • 27:51 The SNA Toolkit and Its Implications
  • 32:24 Conclusion and Call for Stories
Transcript
Speaker:

Welcome to access on Dawn.

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The collapse of special education.

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A special podcast from onshore.net.

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This is Simon Lewis, a teacher

and principal for over 20 years.

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And this series, I look back over the

short history of how children with

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additional needs have slowly but surely

been cast aside by the education system.

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I argue that much like the crimes of the

Catholic church on children, where the

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scandal of the 20th century, that how the

state is treating children with additional

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needs will be the scandal of the 21st.

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In the last episode you

have been introduced to an

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organization called the N C S E.

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And you're going to be hearing

a lot more about them now.

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And I'm going to try and charge how they

went from supporting all children to only

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helping those with the greatest need.

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Ed Carti in the Irish independent

wrote an article around mid:

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Claiming that special needs children

were being excluded from schools.

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It uncovered evidence of mothers

and fathers being told by schools.

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They wish to enroll their child in

that another school might be more

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suitable or that the resources were

simply not available for their child.

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The report also claimed that this

made parents feel they had to fight

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for a placement and that their child

was being enrolled on sufferance.

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The article provided no

examples from families.

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It provided no stories and

parents who claimed they were

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told to find another school.

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And it was a really unusual

article because over the years

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I have learned that if you.

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You want to get.

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Get an article.

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Published.

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In the media.

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In.

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General.

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It needs to.

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To share a personal experience.

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And this didn't.

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This read more like a summary.

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Have a press release.

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Or a report.

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And it was.

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And who wrote it?

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The N C S E.

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The very organization who you

might remember very much welcomed,

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the 15% cook to resources for

children with additional needs.

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The article, which I've linked in the

show notes continued with the NCSE

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complaining that some schools erect,

avert or soft barriers to prevent

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or discourage parents from enrolling

children with special educational needs.

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And then there was this sentence

again, quoted from the NCSC.

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We consider that schools are funded

and resourced to provide an educational

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service to all children in their locality.

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And it made some recommendations and

it's worth having a read of them.

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Because I don't think I'm being

paranoid here, but they don't

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seem to target the purse strings.

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How to listen to these recommendations.

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Every child with special educational

needs is protected from enrollment

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practices or policies with overt or

covert barriers that block his or her

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access to enrollment in the school.

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Every child with special educational

needs that may enroll in the nearest

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school that is, or can be resourced

by the NCSC to meet his or her needs.

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School most enroll a student

with special educational needs.

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If so, directed by the special educational

needs organizer on the basis that

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the school would be provided with

resources in line with national policy.

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Just note in line with national policy,

not in line with the child's needs.

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And lastly, a school must

establish a special class if

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so, requested by the organizer.

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They're basically claiming all of this.

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It's the school's fault, despite the

cuts, despite the lack of supports,

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despite the increases in need, despite

no specialized training, despite

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offering nothing of merit to schools.

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In relation to the last recommendation

where a school must establish a special

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class, if so, requested by an organizer.

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That's the CNO.

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Despite the fact that no teachers would

have specialized training and working

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in working in these specific classes.

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Ah, I don't know.

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It seems that it was going to be a mess.

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And we'll come back to that again.

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It's just one of many

issues with special classes.

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However, before that, I want to look

at the changes that have happened since

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this time, when it came to resourcing

children with special educational needs.

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I want to charge what's

happened since:

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I was watching a clip from a political

show on Virgin media TV, just before

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I was writing this episode on a social

Democrat politician was talking about the

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fight after fight, the parents have to go

through to get their child into a school.

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And I was left thinking of two things.

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The first was that the

politician was almost aping.

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The introduction I wrote for a podcast

episode about two and a half years ago.

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Nothing has changed at all.

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And secondly, I realized that another

thing that had changed dramatically in

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the last 15 years was once they got into

a school, the fight would only just begin.

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And as the years are going on that fight.

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Is getting worse and worse.

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Here's exactly.

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What I said in that episode

two and a half years ago.

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If you're a parent of a child with

additional needs, you're used to

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going into battle for whatever

reason, whether that's spending

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years on waiting lists for speech and

language therapy, or trying to get an

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appointment, to see a child psychiatrist.

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It seems that as a nation, we

are unable to provide any service

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to children in a timely manner.

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The HSE is usually the

main culprit of this.

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In recent times, parents are not

battling to ensure their child has

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the basics of a place in a school.

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Unlike the politician though.

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I lay the blame, not particularly at Faena

for Faena Gail or any political party.

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I said instead.

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The agency that's absolutely

responsible for all of this is the

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national council for special education.

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Back in 2022.

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When I wrote that episode help,

my NCSE has turned into the HSC.

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It was shortly after the then minister

for special education Josefa, Madigan

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was celebrating, getting through

an NCSE policy, which gave them the

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powers to open up special classes.

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In any school.

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They wished the department decided as

well to publish a list of schools that

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had quote, refuse to open special classes.

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Even though this wasn't true.

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And I've linked.

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An article from RTE about that.

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In the show notes.

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Madigan claim the schools had been

ignoring correspondence from the NCSE

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regarding the opening of special classes.

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Now, when it turned out that

this wasn't actually true.

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Madigan refuse to back down.

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And I'm not quite sure who she

blamed, but it wasn't herself.

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Apparently she said

she'd been misinformed.

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However it didn't stop.

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The single minded idea that the

solution to special education in

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Ireland was to open as many special

classes in as many schools as possible.

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No matter what.

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There was no care in the world

that they were the right solution.

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Nevermind the best solution, because the

only basis for opening these classes.

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I was the collective

agreement of middle Ireland.

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A group of people who seem to believe that

all ills in society should be and can be

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fixed by lazy teachers, whether that's

preparing their children for sacraments.

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So they don't have to do it themselves.

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The cost of uniforms and school books to

schools being responsible for preventing

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them from buying smartphones for their

children out, of course, in this case,

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simply opening up classrooms for children

with particular needs, without giving

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them any support or resources to help

the children sitting in these costumes.

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Some of which were described by the

schools as converted storage areas.

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It just must have been music

to the ears of the national

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council for special education.

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As far as the general public were

concerned, open as many special classes as

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possible, and the problems would be over.

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It is a playbook.

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The Irish population must be used to.

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We seem to have a perceived

problem in our society.

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What do we need to do to covered it?

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Up.

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It's a question we've

asked for years on years.

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And we seem to answer it in the same

way on married mothers could be put

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to work as slaves and laundries.

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Girls and women who felt pregnant

could secretly travel to England's.

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Priests could be moved

around to different places.

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If enough people were publicly

worried about them sexually

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abusing their children.

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And if we simply create places in schools

for autistic children and call them

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units and not provide these children.

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with train staff or the

resources and supports they need.

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As long as they're dumped

somewhere, it doesn't matter what

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happens once they aren't causing

trouble for the powers that be.

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And yes, I am making comparisons with

the mother and baby homes as just

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see from Madigan did when she was

talking about special classes, it

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was one of her dafts that I actually

had some sympathy with, but I said

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for a different reason and look.

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I get this comparison is highly

controversial and I don't for

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one minute, believe that children

in special classes are being

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systematically abused by the staff.

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My comparison is with the state

outsourcing its responsibilities

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to some quango and turning a blind

eye when things inevitably go

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wrong and then simply claiming no

responsibility when that happens.

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I'm aware I'm walking a tight rope with

this, and I am aware how deeply hurtful

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it might be to people who experienced the

abuse in the hands of the Catholic church.

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And don't believe the way

that we treat children with

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additional needs is comparable.

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But please understand that this

comparison is not with the actions

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of the people in the system,

but it's with the system itself.

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And while of course I am

horrified by the actions of the

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clergy that abused children.

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And women.

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I am disgusted by the people that

let it happen and stayed silent

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or brushed it under the carpet.

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In essence, what I believe

the NCSC is doing supported by

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government policy is basically.

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Let's not think of any ideas

of how we should really support

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children with additional needs.

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Let's dump them in a

classroom and call it a unit.

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An Irish solution to an Irish problem.

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As we discussed in the

last part of this series.

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The NCSC didn't start off like this.

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It was a simple organization

at the very beginning.

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And a consisted of 72 special education

needs organizers or see knows.

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Or say knows.

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As some people used to like to call them.

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And as I said before, third job

was to ensure that schools received

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whatever supports were recommended

by educational psychologists.

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This was until the recession

hit and everything changed.

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There was a 15% cut to all resource

hours for children with additional needs.

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That was surprisingly very much

welcomed by the NCSC and around the

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time the NCSE wanted extra powers.

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One of which was the sat allocation

odel, which was introduced in:

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It's mentored the 15% cost to support

for children with additional needs.

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And it's never been reversed.

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The recession lives on for

children with additional needs.

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Recent research from the national

principal's forum in:

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the children with additional needs

had an average of 21% fewer teaching

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supports than they would have had

back in:

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You might not have caught.

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Caught that.

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So I think bears.

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Repeating.

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Children with additional.

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Needs are receiving.

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21% fewer teaching supports

than they did in:

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And that statistic

alone is shocking to me.

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And this is thanks to the

NCSS new allocation model.

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The one they were designing while

Rory Quinn made the 15% court.

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This is why the special allocation

model that was designed in:

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To be a batter on fairway was sold

to the public and supported by all

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of the stakeholders as a better

model for allocating those resources.

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I should say the stakeholders might not

have actively supported the new model.

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But they definitely

didn't stand in its way.

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There was absolute silence from the chief

special education representative group.

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You might not have even heard of them.

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They're known as NABS.

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Annie or N a, B S M E.

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I don't know if they deserve a mention

in this podcast because I don't know

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if I have a lot to say about them.

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I guess that just goes to

show their effectiveness.

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What I do want to do.

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Is I need discuss the set

allocation model, which started

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in 2017 and replaced the general

allocation resource hours model.

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I remember clearly when it came out that

I was very worried about what it would

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mean for the children in my school.

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The idea was that instead of children

being allocated resource hours,

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the school would receive a total

allocation based on some algorithm.

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And this algorithm we were told

would be made up of five variables.

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Our enrollment.

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The gender makeup of the

school, standardized test

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scores in literacy and numeracy.

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Complex needs data from the HSC.

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And you're whether you

had a dash status or not.

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But by some amazing trick of mathematics.

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School seemed to end up with

around the same amount of hours

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as they had in 2016 in this model.

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Now, I don't know about you, but if

I invented an algorithm that could

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allocate hours using a very simple

formula, And it managed to somehow

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match all of the 3,200 plus schools

is a previous year's allocations.

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I would probably be looking for

a Nobel prize in mathematics.

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And then another beautiful coincidence.

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If one was to ask for every skills

breakdown of hours by a freedom of

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information requests, like I did.

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This data is exempt from that.

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And in some ways it's no bad thing because

inevitably that would have meant the start

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of league tables and primary schools.

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However, the downside is there is no

way to compare schools, allocations.

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However, I thought of a way that could

give a reasonably good indicator of

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whether this algorithm made any sense.

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Logically.

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I would have thought.

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That if one took every school in every

county and then got an average allocation

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per child in each school in each county.

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Each county should have

around the same allocation.

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And ultimately as it

happened, There was no logic.

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Every county was anything between 0.3,

two hours to 0.5, two hours per pupil.

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I know only seven counties.

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I came within 2% of the average.

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Now, some might argue that's the

testing alone doesn't prove anything.

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And if I saw that, I probably

say you need more proof.

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And in fairness, If I hadn't decided to

check the data over a six-year period.

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Maybe that had something, but

that's exactly what I did.

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And you can have a look at my entire

data set by using the link in the

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show notes because every second

year, the sash allocations are

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recalculated using this magic algorithm.

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And amazingly when schools

started suspecting their.

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Allocations weren't right.

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For a variety of reasons.

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It turns out they were probably right.

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The biggest example of this were schools

that were growing in size and these

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schools are known as developing schools.

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I decided to compare every developing

school to every school that wasn't

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developing and see how they fared.

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And the Sasha allocations from year

to year and despite growing their

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enrollments by an average of 27%.

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Developing skills set allocations

per capita went down by over 15%.

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And on the contrary skills that didn't

grow on average went down in enrollments

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by just over 3%, but somehow gained

over 2% in their set allocations.

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I'm going back to comparing counties.

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There were three sets of sat allocations

calculated after the:

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And you'd expect that counties would

either gain or lose roughly the same

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percentage of allocations per pupil.

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Each time.

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However again, there

was no rhyme or reason.

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There is no pattern.

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For no reason whatsoever allocations in

county awfully went up by nearly 11%.

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But in Roscommon, they went down by 39%.

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It was clear that the

data being used was at.

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Best junk.

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How was it?

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But on unbelievable that the algorithm

using five variables could allocate

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so closely to the previous model.

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'cause it was unbelievable.

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The data was nothing but fantasy.

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No better than plucking

figures out of thin air.

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Some people point to one of

the five variables for this.

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The complex needs variable.

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In fact, the department of education

decided to get rid of it in its

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allocations in 2024, because they

claimed they were only getting

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about 5% of this data from the HSC.

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And somehow this admission that they are

only getting 5% of the data that they

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needed to allocate resources properly.

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Didn't seem to ruffle anybody's feathers.

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Schools had been allocated resources with

95% of HSE information completely missing.

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There wasn't a single mumble

from anyone about that.

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As I said, when it came to 2024,

the department of education

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decided to drop that complex needs

variable from their algorithm.

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They also dropped the gender

variable for obvious reasons,

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which I won't distract you with.

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So this meant that the sole variable

that would affect a school's allocation

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was the scores children got in

standardized literacy and numeracy tests.

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These tests I should tell

you are an indirect result of

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another Rory Quinn decision.

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Back in 2011, Rory Quinn forced

schools to upload their literacy

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and numeracy standardized

results to a government database.

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And at that time they were

promised they would only be

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used for statistical purposes.

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Fast forward, just over a decade.

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They are now being used as one of

the sole variables to give resources

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to children with additional needs.

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One might wonder.

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Why that's a bad thing.

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Literacy and numeracy scores.

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Are a good indicator of.

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The child's ability and the

resourcing they should need.

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But the thing is for anybody that

has, half an idea about working with

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children, you don't even have to

be a teacher to know this literacy

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and numeracy scores do not tell

the full story of a school's needs.

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There are plenty of children

with huge needs that do fine.

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And these tests on essentially, if you

can score well in a one-off annual test.

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You're just going to be penalized for it.

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So in the blink of an eye

or a flick of the pen.

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Allocations for special education

in schools are now based on a

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random, meaningless task, as well

as some random adjustments to ensure

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schools don't fall off a Clair for

on the other hand, get a big jump.

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In short, the data is still based on

absolute junk and I'm no statistician,

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but even the most gentle of scratching,

the figures shows there is no

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logic to the hours being allocated

to schools and thankfully people

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on the ground didn't do nothing.

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The big message that came through

from everyone was that the

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dropping of the complex needs

variable needed to be reversed.

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For woods people came out

and said, this is wrong.

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On this set of allocations debacle, as it

became known as raged on and on, on the

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department of education, tried everything

they could to bury the ongoing protests

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from parents, schools and advocacy groups

through spin and statistics and denial.

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And when now none of that seemed to

be working and faced with a petition

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from over 700 primary school principals

through the national principal's

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forum, things took a baffling twist.

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When a joint statement was released

from the IPN, the NAPD, which is

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the second level version of the YPN.

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And.

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The national parents canceled.

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The statements that was released.

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He states that through the

commentary about set allocations,

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there have been a number of what

they described as misconceptions.

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I'm being careful not to name

any group in particular, for fear

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of giving them any recognition.

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The IPPF categorically stated.

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It is important to be clear that

children with complex needs have not

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been excluded from the allocation

of hours at schools received.

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The department of education, by the way,

even admitted themselves, they dropped

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complex needs as a criteria because

they didn't get the data from the HSC.

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So it was a rather bizarre

statement in the first place.

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But the statement went on further

to explain how they'd come to this

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conclusion using frankly baffling

analysis and language, including a

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lovely word, which I have to quote.

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Even if this, even if the actual

statement didn't really say much at

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all, because it's such a bizarre word.

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Given that the revised allocations

model is now underpinned by more

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accurate data provided by schools.

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It is hoped that the quantum of hours

allocated to schools will better

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enable children with additional

and complex needs to achieve and

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thrive in their mainstream settings.

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Quantum.

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So baffling, they actually use the

word three times in their statements.

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What in God's name is a quantum.

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So for those of you don't

know, I looked it up.

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So a quantum is a word.

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It usually using physics rather

than teacher allocations on.

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It's a weird word to use in a

statement because it's not one

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that an average person would use.

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Nevermind.

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Three times in the same statements.

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And my favorite definition of quantum.

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It was from the Cambridge dictionary.

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Which is the smallest amount.

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Or unit of something, especially energy.

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It could probably define the IPP and

representation of its own members

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in this case, the smallest amount or

unit of something, especially energy.

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:

Basically the IPN, try to pull the

same fast one that the department of

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:

education tried a few days beforehand

saying that the revised allocations

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:

model is now underpinned by more

accurate data provided by schools.

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:

Sadly.

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:

Rather than backup the voices of

principals and parents, the IPN decided

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:

to back the department of education.

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And NCSC, and one has to wonder why.

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:

Yes, they receive financial

support from the department.

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:

Perhaps that's a possibility.

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:

I think it's best to leave

the question hanging.

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:

But I will say this about the IPPF.

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:

For the last few years.

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The IPN has been sharing their

research on the wellbeing of

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:

principals in a sustainability project.

413

:

In all areas of the research, it

shows burnout, stress, sleeping,

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:

troubles, depressive symptoms,

somatic stress, and cognitive stress.

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:

And they've all increased in

principles from:

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:

And all of the conclusion state

that it's getting worse every year.

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I isn't it ironic that when 700 of their

members make a very public cry for help.

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:

The response was to tell

them that they were wrong.

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:

Just one more thing before

we move on from this.

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:

Have a quick look at the board

of directors of the NCSC.

421

:

Maybe you'll find the answer

lies in there somewhere.

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:

Okay.

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:

Let's move on slightly because I want

to add one other variable to special

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:

education provision in the last decade.

425

:

Some people might not realize that

the supports that were being given

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:

to children in 2007 were mainly

literacy and numeracy supports.

427

:

Essentially, if you were a special

education teacher in:

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:

teachers, they were known then.

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:

90% of your work.

430

:

Was literacy and numeracy.

431

:

And these were the

resource hours in general.

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:

And the Alec general allocation model.

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:

Anything around emotional behavioral

needs tended to be allocated to S NAS.

434

:

However these days, support teachers

are now being used for anything from

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:

anxiety, social skills, emotional

supports, behavioral supports,

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:

all sorts of sports that were

being covered by SNS in the past.

437

:

In fact, it's become almost

comical if it wasn't so serious.

438

:

This is an example of what a

special education teacher or a

439

:

teacher is supposed to do that an

SNA is no longer allowed to do.

440

:

And here it is.

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:

It's circulation at the moment on

I think on Twitter, but it comes

442

:

from the SNA toolkit from 2022.

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:

I just to highlight how mad things have

become, and it's in the area of toileting.

444

:

Now, not that long ago, if a

child had a toileting issue, they

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:

will be eligible for SNA support.

446

:

No questions asked and

as he probably acts.

447

:

And as you probably expect, this

meant that the SNA would try and

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:

help the child independently use

the toilet without any issues.

449

:

I'm when this happens, the SNA

would no longer be required

450

:

and they could be redeployed.

451

:

However these days, it's

not as simple as that.

452

:

And as I said, the following is from the

SNA toolkit, which again, I have shared

453

:

in the show notes, the link is there.

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:

The SNA is now not allowed to

prompt a child to use the toilet.

455

:

They're only allowed to deal with the

aftermath of a toileting incidents.

456

:

And even then the SNA isn't allowed to

prompt the child to wipe themselves.

457

:

They're also not allowed to

arrange clothing after the toilet.

458

:

In fact, unless the toilet is outside

the classroom, the SNA can't even

459

:

escort the child to the toilet.

460

:

Instead the class teacher or sat

teacher is responsible for a minding.

461

:

The child's use the toilet.

462

:

Where's the Ash as Google has

to prove exactly how often a

463

:

child's soils themselves over a

long period of time in order for

464

:

deployment to be in place at all.

465

:

And this may be where the comparisons to

those institutions I spoke about there.

466

:

A few minutes ago, ring.

467

:

True.

468

:

To me.

469

:

This is abuse.

470

:

It's own forgivable it's on it's

here in black and white since:

471

:

And that S and a toolkit.

472

:

To me, as I said, it's abusive

and unforgivable and I would

473

:

hazard a guess that we are lucky.

474

:

Really.

475

:

The people who work in schools

are in general, more moral than

476

:

the people making the rules.

477

:

As I say, it's the

systems that are abusive.

478

:

The SNA toolkit is a good example

of how crazy things have become.

479

:

And it has gone down the road

where I would say it is abusive.

480

:

I don't know if I can

repeat that word more.

481

:

More, more often than I am, but.

482

:

I can't think of another word for it.

483

:

Other than abuse.

484

:

Speaking of S and A's not only has there

been a reduction in teaching supports

485

:

for children with additional needs.

486

:

It's also become much more

difficult for schools to apply

487

:

for SNA support if they need it.

488

:

Essentially, a school's allocation

of fascinates has been frozen

489

:

since the 20 19 20 20 school year.

490

:

It's now called the front loading model.

491

:

I started on the board of directors

of the IPPF at the time, when we were

492

:

informed about these front load and

models, I was going to come along.

493

:

And the era of resignation.

494

:

In the room when we were told about

this helps me make the decision to

495

:

leave the board almost immediately.

496

:

It was my first.

497

:

Board meeting.

498

:

I'm my only regret was.

499

:

I waited a few more months to step away.

500

:

Yeah.

501

:

I am the George Lee.

502

:

Of education, basically the NCSE froze

the allocation of SNS and primary

503

:

schools, as they try to figure out

some sort of random arbitrary algorithm

504

:

to allocate to schools rather than to

children leaving the principal to make

505

:

choices of which children in the school

will receive supports which will not.

506

:

It's only four and a half years

later, they have a new revised

507

:

model, which has already over

complicated and over bureaucratic.

508

:

And the only way to compare it to what

it's been for the last four and a half

509

:

years is it's like someone who's been

punching you really hard for four years.

510

:

And they decide to punch

you a little more gently.

511

:

Now.

512

:

But still punching him.

513

:

Naturally the IPP and have welcomed the

new model because the mantra still is

514

:

that those with the gracious need should

have the greatest amount of support.

515

:

Unless, of course you are a school stop.

516

:

You don't get any support at all.

517

:

And if you're a principal, don't

forget, you are merely just one quantum.

518

:

As you can see, despite it being very

obvious, the NCSE have been allowed to

519

:

reduce supports, and they've been ably

supported by those who are in power.

520

:

But what I want to really, to.

521

:

Is gash inside the doors of the N C S E.

522

:

And.

523

:

I want to give you.

524

:

An interesting statistic.

525

:

Off the 62.

526

:

Or so Surenos.

527

:

That were employed by the NCSC in 2021.

528

:

So just three years ago that there

was off the 62 and a bit of them.

529

:

31 of them.

530

:

I left the NCSE between 2021 and 2023.

531

:

Now, any organization that

loses half of their staff.

532

:

Within a couple of years.

533

:

Most raise questions.

534

:

And the reason I'm saying it now.

535

:

Is because I love to hear from

any of those 31 CNAs or even

536

:

the ones that didn't leave.

537

:

I want to know what happened to them.

538

:

Perhaps you're one of those former Nose or

perhaps you're someone who's still in the

539

:

NCSC or outside of the NCSC that knows.

540

:

More than I do.

541

:

And as I said, I'd really

like you to get in touch.

542

:

And I can assure you

confidentiality if necessary.

543

:

Because that's where I think we

might travel to in our next episode.

544

:

To the CNAs.

545

:

One of the only front

facing elements of the NCSC.

546

:

And as of this time of this recording,

I've already heard from two former CNAs.

547

:

Who've told me of the rot within.

548

:

Hopefully before we get to the next

episode, some more will come forward.

549

:

And I'm hoping that I'll be able to

tell their stories, or maybe they'll

550

:

be able to tell them themselves.

551

:

In fact.

552

:

I might take a bit of a chance here.

553

:

I'm make a decision closer to the time.

554

:

Because I might give it another few weeks.

555

:

Just in case these people need.

556

:

To get advice of whether

it's safe enough to talk.

557

:

And I might talk about another

scandal caused by the NCSE.

558

:

If I don't hear from enough people.

559

:

Hopefully one or two may be brave

enough to tell their stories.

560

:

But I don't want to post

people under pressure.

561

:

Because that's not fair

either but we do know.

562

:

The same on, it's a famous saying the

bad things happen when good people.

563

:

Do or say nothing.

564

:

The onshore dot Nash.

565

:

Podcasts is written and

produced by me, Simon Lewis.

566

:

If you'd like to hear more of my

thoughts on primary education and

567

:

art, and you should subscribe to my

mailing list on shot.net/subscribe.

568

:

And if you've enjoyed this podcast so

far, Please consider reviewing it on

569

:

your favorite podcast player as it will

help other people find it more easily.

570

:

Until next time.

571

:

Thanks so much for listening.

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Anseo.net - If I were the Minister for Education
An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis