Episode 9

The Perennial Family without a School Place

In this episode of 'If I Were the Minister for Education', I delve into the struggles faced by families in securing school placements for children with additional needs, the inefficiencies of the National Council for Special Education (NCSE), and the dynamics of religious education. I also look at what can be learned from Singapore's education system, following a visit by John Boyle.

Show Notes, as always, can be found on: https://anseo.net/?p=19743

Transcript
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Hello?

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Hello.

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You're very welcome to if I were the

minister for education from onshore.net,

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a regular podcast, where I look into

the world of primary education and that,

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what I would do if I were the minister

for education, this is Simon Lewis.

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On this week's show.

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We are looking at it's yet the

perennial picture of another

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year, a no place in schools for

children with additional needs.

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Or another, a few schools, a reconfigure

from Catholic to multi-denominational

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and finally John Boyle visits, Singapore.

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What can we learn from the visit?

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If you're interested in this podcast,

you are very welcome to subscribe to

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it on any of your favorite podcasting

platforms, whether that's Spotify, apple

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podcasts, or any of the rest of them.

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And it would be really great if

you wouldn't mind doing so and

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telling your friends about it.

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And if you aren't doing so already, I

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also have a YouTube channel where you

can watch along this episode watching

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me going through some of those articles,

but you can also get some extra content.

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Because every couple of weeks I

look for a new technology too.

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And I review that and show

you what it can do this week.

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I'm looking at Ray ban, the matter

Ray-Ban glasses, they're smart glasses

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and I'll be showing you what could be done

with them in a primary school setting.

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So let's get on with it and let's

look at the perennial story.

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I think everyone has probably.

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Sick to death of seeing to after.

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Looking at a family, looking a

little bit like this and your average

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newspaper with the same headline.

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We can't find a school for

our son and we're at our wits.

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And after a number of rejections, And

some sort of, thrash that they're going

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to have to take drastic action, which

usually involves one of them quitting

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their job to look after their child's.

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Or who knows what else?

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It's.

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It's just a complete failure on the

department of education, on the NCSC

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who are letting down families like this.

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And so many others every single

year on to, Isn't it awful

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that I'm sick to the teeth.

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Of talking about this story, I'm

sure you're sick to the teeth.

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Of looking at these stories every

year, where it's always a poor

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family and it's always a family.

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One of the things I suppose,

from this that I suppose I.

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Kind of find really interesting is

that while this is affecting thousands

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of families around the country, or

at least hundreds of families around

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the country, that they can't go to

place for their child in a local

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school or in a school that's whole.

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It is.

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There's always the one family.

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They always pick our family every

year and it just happens to be

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this particular family, but this

family can be mirrored every year.

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And it's always the

story of this one family.

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And.

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The weird thing and I think.

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What I've noticed, over the last

number of years is it's that family.

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So the family that

appear in the newspaper.

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There's an arrangement made because

it embarrasses some some local

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politician who sees the article

and somehow places find for them.

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And so in some weird, messed up way.

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This particular family have almost won a

lottery to be the face of this perennial

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story that comes up every single year.

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And.

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My, that might be fine for this family,

the hundreds of other families who maybe

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weren't willing to share their story of.

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Why should they why should

you have to go to a newspaper?

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And share your personal

journey or your situation.

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Or you can't get a school for your

kid, usually with additional needs.

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It's just, it's not right.

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It's just morally not right for

this sort of stuff to happen.

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And the blame.

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Because there is blame.

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Has to go as always.

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And I suppose you're

probably sick to the teeth.

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You'd be sick to the teeth, to some

of these stories I cover every week,

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but the blame has to go with the

national council for special education.

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Who couldn't plan their way out.

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Of an open door.

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I don't know if that's even an expression.

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It's just astounding.

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That every year, they managed not to

be able to plan places for children.

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And I know why.

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The mounting.

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It's no mystery as to why,

because they don't know what

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children need places from nutria.

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They carry no data on any child.

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So the agency that is responsible for

organizing placements for children

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with additional needs in schools

carries no data on any children on its.

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And you might wonder.

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That can't be true.

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It couldn't be true.

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But the fact of the matter it is, and

it has a huge impact in so many ways.

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And there's a reason they don't

have the data on children.

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I would imagine that because

if you have the data, you

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have to do something about it.

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So if they have no data, for example,

they don't have to, there's no

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pressure to supply the resources to

those children because they don't

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know how many children there are.

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What they do is they provide the gas.

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I in fact, I think they are.

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They're just guessing because the data

hey use is absolute junk from:

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they're still using the same data to

allocate resources to schools on the.

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Basically schools have

to make the best of it.

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And they've come up with

this slogan, this phrase.

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Where you have to provide the

supports to the highest level of need.

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Which is an entirely meaningless.

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Phrase, I don't understand.

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I hear people saying

this without laughing.

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Or without, at least, I

dunno, rolling their eyes.

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They say it as if this is, I find

it's one of those funny things that

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if you say something enough, it

cert it somehow becomes, acceptably.

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True.

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And what I find mad about the NCSS

mantra is that you're hearing naps

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saying it you're hearing actually

representative body saying it.

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And you're hearing even principals

saying, oh no, I am, giving the

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highest level of support, the

highest level of need my school.

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What we are saying when we say that,

I think I've said this every week on.

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On this podcast is you're

basically saying we are.

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We are.

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Yes you're applying the Mo.

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The norm at the highest level of support

to the height, to the highest level need.

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But it means that you're not

providing support to children

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who also have needs children with

additional needs should receive.

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Whatever support they need.

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We shouldn't be messing around.

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By giving some children's support and some

children, no support it makes no sense.

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And the NCSE are absolutely

to blame for this.

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And they, rather than

making things easier.

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They're constantly adding layers

and layers of bureaucracy to

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make it more and more difficult.

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For example, when it comes to giving

resources to schools, they gave schools.

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As we, as I probably covered a number

of weeks ago, their Sasha allocations.

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The national principal's

forum did a survey.

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I think something like three quarters of

schools didn't get an adequate number of.

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Of supports.

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Most people didn't bother applying

for extra supports because they

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knew they wouldn't get them

because they know that only 8% of

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appeals are sucks are successful.

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And so you don't really

have much of a chance, but.

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If you were one of those schools and I was

one of them, and then there's a few, and

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there's quite a number of others who were.

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D, if you put in.

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Your appeal, which in my

case was 26 pages long.

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It, lots of other cases.

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It was seminars, but the

bigger the school, the longer

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they are the number of pages.

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And then.

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Most schools iSanctuary told.

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No.

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With no explanation and there's no

appeals mechanism for the appeal.

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Ready?

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But even if you did.

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Succeed at getting to the next round.

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You have to then do a

full review of your needs.

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Desktop review.

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I hate that phrase.

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It's meaningless.

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And you still might not get anything.

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So I think what they're

doing is they're layering.

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Larin red tape of red tape.

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And it just annoys me a lot because

I'm in the job over 15 years.

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And 15 years ago, this

worked, it worked easily.

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Children got the support,

they needed the roof.

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Wasn't perfect.

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But you actually got the

supports you required.

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If you were a child, all you needed

was a particular diagnosis and you were

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given a number of hours to be supported.

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Has it, it wasn't perfect.

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But it certainly wasn't, it's

certainly not as bad as it is now.

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And.

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That's warning impact of it.

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If you look at this poor family here

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that can't even get into a school.

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And even if they, even, if some

politician came along and said,

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oh, I have a school for you.

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And they get a place some high,

because again, this is this

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lottery of being in the newspapers

to embarrass the politicians.

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They D they was sent they go to the

NCSE and say, how can I have the place?

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My child has a diagnosis of autism.

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It's not enough anymore.

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Oh, no.

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You now have to prove that not only

do you have a diagnosis of autism,

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you also have to prove that you need.

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As a special class for autism.

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And not only that you have to also

now as of this year, there's an added

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layer have complex needs on top of

that, that would prevent you from being

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able to access the mainstream class.

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The layers of bureaucracy are

stunning and it goes on and on.

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And.

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Principles around the

country are sick of it.

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Absolutely sick of it.

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A survey after survey from the

national principal's forum.

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Have shown that this is becoming.

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One of the biggest stressors for

principals around the country.

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It's the second biggest

stressor in the job.

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Trying to get resources for

children with additional needs.

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And it's absolutely shocking that the

blocker here is the is the NCSE the

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national cancer special education,

whose job it is to make sure that every

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child with an additional need receive

the support they have, but they don't

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actually have any data on the children.

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There's so many layers.

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There's so many ways this happens.

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I haven't touched on the Aon debacle.

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That stuff carries on.

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The NCSC can't fulfill their

obligations to provide reports

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for children, for the AOM, because

they have no data on children.

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So they're forcing schools to.

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Some wash.

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To somehow be able to give it an

educational assessment we're not

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qualified to do essentially, schools

are using school support plans, which

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are absolutely inappropriate for this.

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To provide information on for children

and, again, it just makes a mockery of

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the system, because again, it doesn't

provide children with any supports.

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I could go on and on about the NCSC

and I've done episodes of this podcast

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about how inapt the organization is,

and it's getting worse and worse.

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And, there's a, I often

quote the Simpsons.

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I'm not lying.

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Where, when I cannot, I can't remember

the scene, but the line has stopped.

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Stop.

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He's already dead.

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It could be said about

the NCSE we need to.

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They keep pumping.

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They're pumping money into it.

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They've Norma voting made this

a nice that they were pumping.

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More and more money into this for

more and more, more people, but

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the peop why are the people doing.

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I like one of the things that I

find really, I nerdy find it funny

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because it's so pathetic looking

and I can't wait for this app.

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I've got nerdy.

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Can't wait for this to happen to

me because I won't be able to help

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laughing at the situation if you need.

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If you've got a review for

special needs assistance or sat,

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allocations, whatever it is.

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You go through the first stage.

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You, maybe you get through the

second stage and then what you

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get is a visit from the CNO.

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Now, back in my day.

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You didn't have those two layers.

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You rang the CNM.

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He said, listen, I have

these kids with these needs.

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Ah, here's the paperwork and the

senior will go, no problem at all.

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They do a little bit of paperwork

and you would get the resources.

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Now after the two layers,

they send it not one center.

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They send three CNOs into your

school and they come in dressed

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as inspectors and they have.

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From what I've heard from.

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You have friends of mine.

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Who've had this, they come in.

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It's like Halloween in a way that, these

are regular people, but they put on power

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suits and they come in, not smiling and

they're interview people very importantly.

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And they're probably where briefcase is

now a black cars and things like that.

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Like it's a joke.

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It's it's I just find it funny.

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These are like, Module promoting people

to think that they're really important.

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Just give the resources.

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Here's the evidence, give the resources.

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Don't be.

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in a way it's designed

deliberately to be intimidating.

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And it does intimidate people.

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Imagine having three inspectors

coming into you, going through

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every scrap of paper you have just.

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The amount of money.

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They're putting into preventing

putting the resources in is, will

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be far outweighed by the amount

of help they could give for the

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money they're actually spending.

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It's amazing.

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I've never seen.

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Such an aptitude.

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And silliness.

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It's almost Monte Python ask.

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The way they're running the

system and it's fast becoming.

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I don't know.

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It's already a nonsense.

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But it's almost becoming, parody it

itself, but it was a sad, this poor

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family and hundreds, more like them.

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It's no solace to them.

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Me laughing at CNAs.

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They don't have a school place, but now

you've got maybe if you didn't know why,

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maybe you know why now it's it's amazing.

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The ocean depended also go for the

story this time they didn't pick

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on a family, but they picked at

the children's ombudsman, non Lil.

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Dude who talked about this as a bit of

a crisis as well, but look, we will move

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on to other ad discrimination and that is

the discrimination on religious grounds.

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I haven't covered religion.

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For awhile, but it's a, I suppose it's a

good news story in some ways this time,

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because a few weeks ago I talked about the

very, very first educate together school

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that emerged from a Catholic school.

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So a Catholic school reconfigured,

or like vested to educate

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together for the first time.

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After 13 years of the

pluralism and patronage forum.

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The first functioning Catholic school.

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But three more schools

multi-denominational schools will

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be opening open this September.

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All three of them are former coffee or

our Catholic schools who've as, nor.

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Back to normal, back to normal.

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They feared they'd been reconfigured

to the ETB in a carry, keeps coming up.

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This is the fifth.

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Ah, multi-denominational school that

has been a hundred from Catholic to add.

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To the community and our

school by the Bishop of Kerry.

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And it's this is Kerry is

an interesting what now?

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Cork in Limerick, our last interest in

cork on number, car cities they need.

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It's amazing how few places

are for multi-denominational

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schools in these cities.

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You think in cities, it

will be different times.

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A number of weeks ago, you can look

back on some of the statistics I have.

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But a Limbrick has one of the lowest

population of non-religious Placer

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multi-denominational places in the county.

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Cork is in the top.

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In the top six, I think I'm out.

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I had a lowly three and a half percent

of schools are multidimensional.

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But Carrie.

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Is this puzzling.

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Em.

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Outlier in monster in that.

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It's not quite the highest, but

it's one of the highest number

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of multi-denominational number

of multi-denominational schools.

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I think Kerry has about 70 odd schools.

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I now have six of them.

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RM.

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Our multi-denominational,

which is a tiny figure.

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Obviously it's still

under 10% way under 10%.

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And people are going there you go.

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So now Carrie is brilliant.

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Look at the number of skills

they're divesting every year.

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Th the truth though, is that all

of the schools that have been

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divested to the ETB, almost all Bush.

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One, I think have had fewer

than 50 children in it.

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So the schools that have been moved

over from Catholic to community

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national school were generally schools.

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The rider.

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Closing at risk of

closing or about to close.

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So you're talking about skills that

may be, fewer than 20 children,

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most cases, the only, there's

only two schools that move to the.

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Community national school model

that were functioning pretty well.

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That was when a Nina.

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I'm wanting an outside Ross common,

which is again a small enough school.

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So I think it's really the only the one

in Nina that was at least big enough.

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And.

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But all the rest of the 30 odd

schools are tiny little schools.

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So I, it was interesting to me in a way.

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Because.

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I did as as some of you might remember,

I did a bit of a data analysis.

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Of the percentage of multi-denominational

schools in each county.

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And we found that Dublin was

the only one with more than 10%.

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But somebody very clever said to

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me, Simon now it's all well and good

saying the number of schools that

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are multidimensional, but how many

pupils are there as a percentage

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in multi-denominational schools?

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Because the school's only

tells some of the story.

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So if you remember from before.

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We said there's something a dash.

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Dublin was the only county where there

was more than 10% of schools that were

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multidimensional, but how many pupils?

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And I thought that was a

very interesting question.

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So I did the analysis and if you're

watching on YouTube, you'll see that.

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Here I've done it.

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Per county.

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And when you glance at the percentages,

you'll find the Dublin still is

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there over 10% and still is the

only county where more than 10% of

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children go to attend to multi-track.

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10 multicast multigenerational education

and notes that includes educate together.

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A community nationals goes

onto a lot of Google scholar.

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Now so that's not about 16%

of all children in Dublin.

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Go to multi go to a

multi-denominational school now, Dublin.

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Is a county where I think

it's something like is.

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59 or something like that.

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I did there's 59% of people are Catholic.

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Anyway.

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Th that doesn't really matter.

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It's still very low, but then you look

at Wicklow caldera Maeve at about eight

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and 9% cork despite having three and a

half or three, just under 4% of schools.

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6% of children got to go to

a multidimensional school.

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This is around the same

in Westmead of all places.

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This is a, some surprises.

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I guess in, in places like, for

example, Cardo, there's only one

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school in Carlo it's my school that's

multi-denominational but that accounts

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for 5% of all children in the county duh.

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come to my school.

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We say Westmead who also has, I think

just two multi-denominational schools

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that accounts for 6% of all schools.

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So we can see really that.

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The different schools it like, it's

more let's say accurate picture of,

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the number of children who've got

access to multi-denominational school.

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It's tiny still.

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Less than 10% in every

county except Dublin.

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And it's when you go to the,

like 13 of the counties.

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Here are less than 3%.

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It's pathetic in some cases.

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1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 counties

have less than 1% of children.

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That's temporary that have one

multi-denominational school Sligo

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with one multi-dimensional school,

Russ common with one multidimensional.

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Let's go to need your mafia monument.

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No multi-denominational

schools, but interestingly,

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Carrie with its massive six.

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Multi-denominational schools.

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W within the six schools in their

entirety, it's only 192 children.

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So 1% of children get to go

to a multidimensional school.

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So it's tiny and a bit pathetic.

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I was actually surprised

to see Mayo at only 1.47.

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Presentive schools because they've

three multi-denominational schools.

399

:

And we're high up for

want of a better verb.

400

:

Don't go alone.

401

:

Surprisingly, I was lo Kilkenny, a city,

a place of the city, 2% awfully with

402

:

it's one school, 2% Limerick there again.

403

:

And three are formal

digital foundational skills.

404

:

I don't need 2.6, 7%.

405

:

Of at the children go to

multi-denominational schools.

406

:

It's it's bad reading,

whatever way you look at it.

407

:

It's really poor.

408

:

It's really poor when you have

14% of the country of people

409

:

living in our, in Ireland.

410

:

I have no religion just

as a, as an entity.

411

:

And if you add other religions

but let's just pick 14%.

412

:

There's only Dublin is about

the only place occasionally that

413

:

data people with no religion.

414

:

But obviously that doesn't

count people to do have a lot.

415

:

Who do have other religions

Catholic, like Catholic Catholics

416

:

that came to for what is it about?

417

:

Is it.

418

:

It is a gun that to 69 at 60 odd percent.

419

:

But even at that, most of

them don't believe in God.

420

:

Anyway, I, according to the research

site there, weddings, I think

421

:

is like 30% of weddings are now.

422

:

Our now Catholic, it's it.

423

:

Doesn't it doesn't paint a good picture.

424

:

And I suppose it leads me on to

the next story, really in a way.

425

:

It was a story that I

was going to go over.

426

:

Sorry.

427

:

I'm not comfortable.

428

:

But I'll tell you about it in a way.

429

:

Was one from the Irish Catholic.

430

:

I will converse actually, because

I think it's an interesting story.

431

:

Effectively there.

432

:

The Irish Catholics think that this

means that young people are desperate

433

:

for the church to offer them faith

and meaning despite rejecting

434

:

their teachings after 14 years.

435

:

Of them being forced upon them.

436

:

The Irish Catholic has an article

from Owen McCormack, who is

437

:

blaming the Catholic church

for not doing its job properly.

438

:

In terms of providing

faith formation in schools.

439

:

And he criticized, I.

440

:

I agree with what, a lot of what she says

apart from the headline, which is that

441

:

the young people are desperate for the

church softer than faith and meaning.

442

:

I think the young people aren't

desperate for the church to

443

:

offer them faith and meaning.

444

:

I think young people have.

445

:

Are walking away from organized.

446

:

Faith, I think.

447

:

If you talk to a young people

these days they seem well.

448

:

And the studies have shown this and

actually the Catholic church's own

449

:

studies have shown this more than half

of them don't believe in a personal God.

450

:

They may have a spirituality

and they seem a lot of people

451

:

seem to have a spirituality.

452

:

They seem to believe in something

but not particularly a God.

453

:

And they're certainly

rejecting Catholic dogma.

454

:

And I know this might be bad news

for people in the Irish Catholic

455

:

who I feel are being a little bit

belligerent there in terms of what

456

:

they're saying in their headline.

457

:

Though they are.

458

:

Probably correct.

459

:

And criticizing the faith for me.

460

:

No, maybe not the faith formation program.

461

:

But I think they need to

be looking at who are they?

462

:

Who are they?

463

:

They're forcing non-believers.

464

:

So the, most of the teachers working in

Catholic schools don't really believe

465

:

in the Catholic faith all that much.

466

:

And we know that began

from that grace report.

467

:

But we're asking them, we're

forcing them to be mission reason.

468

:

And what kind of missionaries do you

think they're going to be if they don't

469

:

believe in the mission themselves?

470

:

And, As I go back to my to my.

471

:

A friend or my Robert who said this.

472

:

Faith is not a subject.

473

:

You, if you want someone to

pass on the faith to people.

474

:

They need to have that Dave.

475

:

It's not like maths.

476

:

Or you just learn a bunch of stuff.

477

:

You know, it's more than,

It's more than that.

478

:

It's believing in something you can prove.

479

:

And it's very difficult to do that.

480

:

With people who just don't

buy in it to themselves.

481

:

And I think if I were the Irish Catholic.

482

:

One thing I would love to do is

I would love to talk to people.

483

:

It who are providing Catholic education?

484

:

And I keep trying to meet

people in this regard.

485

:

And I'm actually not anti-Catholic at all.

486

:

In fact, I would say I'm more pro Catholic

than most conflicts, because I believe if

487

:

you have a true faith, if you believe in.

488

:

God, if you believe in something.

489

:

That's a wonderful thing.

490

:

I, I used to be jealous.

491

:

Ah, I've that?

492

:

I know my mom, for example,

she died very young.

493

:

She was only 53.

494

:

And she had a real faith that

she was going to go to heaven.

495

:

And in a way I'm jealous of that fact

that I don't have, I don't share that.

496

:

I'm comfortable with the fact that

I don't believe in an afterlife.

497

:

As I get older I'm becoming more

and more comfortable with it.

498

:

But there is that jealousy,

slight jealousy that I have,

499

:

that she really believed she was

going to go to heaven or hell.

500

:

But I think she, I think having.

501

:

When she died and isn't that very

peaceful that she believed she

502

:

was going to be able to look down.

503

:

On us and continue her life.

504

:

In a different way.

505

:

And I don't have the Asha.

506

:

Not that many people that had

a religion, don't talk that.

507

:

And it's, it can be a very scary thing.

508

:

For people and I think, I'm

not saying that's the only

509

:

reason for religion though.

510

:

I do believe most of

the success is religion.

511

:

It lies in what happens when you die.

512

:

But, I think.

513

:

Religion can bring so much good to.

514

:

To, to people who really

believe the messages.

515

:

I need to have those messages who

may need that for their ethical

516

:

way of life to give them direction.

517

:

I don't think people necessarily do in

my view, Busch, those who do need it.

518

:

I feel that should be

respected and I do respect it.

519

:

Especially when they don't try

and push it on me Hab, I think.

520

:

I do think there've been

let down by their leaders.

521

:

I really do people who

have a strong faith.

522

:

I've been let down, particularly in

Catholicism by their churches and have

523

:

been let down for a long time, so much.

524

:

Dosh, I think unfortunately

the Catholic church has focused

525

:

so much on power property.

526

:

They have lashed there.

527

:

Their congregations.

528

:

They've devastated effectively.

529

:

Lost their flock.

530

:

To, to use their own words.

531

:

It's it's very sad.

532

:

I actually don't think they're in a

position to make bullish articles.

533

:

Like this one But yet they persist

in thinking they deserve to, or

534

:

that, yes, the people are wrong.

535

:

Not them.

536

:

They really need to take a good,

long, hard look at themselves.

537

:

Anyway, I move on to lighter and lighter

story, which is the visit to Singapore.

538

:

From John Boyle, the general

secretary of the I N T O.

539

:

And he visited Singapore to

find out why it's the top

540

:

education system in the world.

541

:

According to Piza, it doesn't

necessarily mean to do the top education

542

:

system in the world, by the way.

543

:

But PS, I believe they are.

544

:

The a top education system, but

don't because they have low people,

545

:

teacher ratios, they're well-equipped

classrooms and dedicated teachers

546

:

to contribute to positive learning

atmospheres in modern school buildings.

547

:

And I think that is.

548

:

He's he went, so let's find out

what he learned when he went there.

549

:

So basically John Boyle.

550

:

Wrote the article.

551

:

He went as part of a

conference to look at us.

552

:

And Singapore has, because it's

been independent for a very short.

553

:

A matter of time, much

shorter than Ireland.

554

:

1965 and it's become a, it basically had

air was an impoverish island, impoverished

555

:

island with no natural resources

and a mostly illiterate population

556

:

to a country on a 6 million people.

557

:

Which is very similar to

Arlen's population right now.

558

:

And they decided that they would put a lot

of importance on an education workforce

559

:

to fulfilling ambitious economic goals.

560

:

And it's paid off on their education

system is now ranked as top of the

561

:

international rankings in Piza.

562

:

He went over to visit.

563

:

And she said there was no surprise

to him to witness excellence

564

:

in their primary schools.

565

:

And so at the summit that he was asked.

566

:

Essentially, I'm going

to read this paragraph.

567

:

He each day of the summit began with

an organized school visit to provide

568

:

context for discussions in the afternoon.

569

:

I was really impressed with the amazing

infrastructure at all three schools

570

:

well-designed classrooms, albeit smaller

than where Irish people's typically are.

571

:

And it's interesting and abundance

of flexible learning spaces,

572

:

which we don't have in Ireland.

573

:

A suite of specialist rooms for music

are on mother tongue language, earning,

574

:

which we don't have many ribs to

support children with additional needs.

575

:

We don't, we have a few, but not enough,

including those who need to behavioral

576

:

support, which we don't have an Arnett

school canteens, which we don't have

577

:

all the weather outdoor spaces, which

we don't have well-developed school

578

:

gardens, which only some of us have.

579

:

And.

580

:

Energy efficient buildings,

which only some of us had.

581

:

So in that paragraph.

582

:

Alone.

583

:

You can see.

584

:

How the Singapore.

585

:

I've sat that physical layer.

586

:

I've said this before.

587

:

And when we were looking at Astonia, we

were looking at Finland's what jumped

588

:

out at me when I went to a Finland

was the physical space and how that.

589

:

To me.

590

:

What's the difference

between Ireland and Finland.

591

:

We have so many things in common.

592

:

I actually think we have better teaching

methodologies in Ireland than they

593

:

do in Finland, but the use of space,

the physical layout of buildings,

594

:

the outdoor spaces that they use.

595

:

Andy wraparound infrastructures.

596

:

They are the things that

make the difference.

597

:

It's not actually academics,

it's wraparound services and the

598

:

physical space that they have.

599

:

That really did for me.

600

:

Eh, I don't know about Singapore.

601

:

They have a wide range of subjects.

602

:

Like we do a broad based education where

we do a crucial aspect of Singapore's.

603

:

Was, it was the quality of its educators.

604

:

I think we have a very

high quality of education.

605

:

I I D I they're saying that, they

calculate the number teachers they

606

:

need, and they open that number of

place on teacher training programs.

607

:

We don't do that.

608

:

And I actually think, we

have a teacher shortage.

609

:

Do I always feel that when people

go over to a country, they get a

610

:

sort of a best case scenario of it.

611

:

I think, there's a shortage of

teachers is an international issue.

612

:

But anyway student teachers are

actually paid over in Singapore, which

613

:

I see there and there's some stuff,

bad leadership an online student

614

:

learning space and is available.

615

:

We have that, but it's not

funded by the government.

616

:

Parents at places, a strong emphasis on

education and are active in the journey.

617

:

I think Irish parents are still

pretty good in that regard and they

618

:

say they provide a wavering support.

619

:

I don't necessarily buy into that.

620

:

I think they parents or parents.

621

:

A strong work ethic, similar to

maybe art and DeVos, a little dish.

622

:

I don't know if that's the same

now, but again, culturally,

623

:

these are cultural things.

624

:

I'm not sure how much of this

I would Lay a huge amount of

625

:

emphasis on they're looking at the

way they add critical thinking.

626

:

Problem solving, I think is fair enough.

627

:

And 80% of all students with

special needs attend to mainstream

628

:

schools, similar to Ireland.

629

:

I think, I don't know what that means.

630

:

But there are learning

support specialists.

631

:

We don't have specialists.

632

:

I don't know if Singaporeans have

specialists, but I, I can't, I don't know.

633

:

I don't know.

634

:

And I'm not going to deny that they have

them, but there is, oh, here's the answer.

635

:

They do have specialized

training in special education.

636

:

That's provided, which is clearly needed.

637

:

For students that need more intensive

or specialized assistance, there are

638

:

government funded, special education

schools, similar to ourselves over here,

639

:

despite their success had to go through

the criticisms are high stress levels

640

:

among students and over emphasis on exams.

641

:

Yeah.

642

:

And I think that's why they do so

well and pieces where we, pieces are

643

:

based on literacy and numeracy exams.

644

:

So the lack of creativity, critical

thinking, despite the opposite being sad.

645

:

So I don't know, it's a it's

quite interesting to look at a

646

:

very different education system,

a non-European education system.

647

:

And, it was really, I have to

say it was really interesting.

648

:

To hear John Boyle's experience of

going to Singapore and the education

649

:

system, to be honest after, reading it.

650

:

And I'm going through this.

651

:

I don't think we're, we have a

lot of good things in place in

652

:

our, and I say this all the time.

653

:

I know I give out about

the Irish education system,

654

:

but I do always recognize.

655

:

That there's a lot of good.

656

:

I.

657

:

And I'm going to say good.

658

:

It's good.

659

:

We have a lot of trust

in our teachers still.

660

:

Ah, we have good teachers.

661

:

Our teachers are well are

reasonably well-qualified.

662

:

I think I could while that's gone down

a little bit in the last 15 years or so

663

:

but the privatization of our education

system teacher training I do think.

664

:

Still overall, we have a very good.

665

:

Very good teachers.

666

:

And I actually don't think it's funny.

667

:

I think teacher training

is an interesting thing.

668

:

Because I.

669

:

I think it's to do with the

people that go into teaching

670

:

rather than the teacher training.

671

:

MacBook Pro Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-19:

I still, I do believe that there is a

672

:

vocational sort of sense still in Ireland

for teaching that you don't go into it.

673

:

Merely as just a job, you do have to

really care about the job to succeed.

674

:

And it's a very difficult job.

675

:

If you don't love.

676

:

Have that vocational aspect too,

as you don't love teaching, if

677

:

you don't really love children

and helping them learn and done.

678

:

It's still a very caring, professional.

679

:

It, relationships are always a big

part of I think of an Irish primary

680

:

school at teachers taking that people

might listen to this cringing and

681

:

saying, you're talking non-synthetic,

but I do think we still have that.

682

:

And although we are paid professional

and we are work professionally, I think

683

:

where the big problem is in Ireland.

684

:

Actually lies in structures.

685

:

We have an absolutely over complicated.

686

:

As I call them.

687

:

I used to on the podcast, used to refer

to the Christmas decorations, the.

688

:

Eh, the Arctic just

completely, not the bits.

689

:

And we just haven't.

690

:

Every time you try and unravel a, not a

new knot comes along and then you add.

691

:

At some point you just give

up and you just throw it.

692

:

Throw them up in the Arctic and

hope, hope it all works out.

693

:

We have, so we've way too many way

too much bureaucracy way too many

694

:

agencies, way too many quangos way

too many interferences from external.

695

:

People who don't talk to each other and

don't carry data on each other and so on.

696

:

And so on, we also lack.

697

:

We have far too many schools,

I would argue in Ireland.

698

:

I think we we don't plan.

699

:

For that.

700

:

I think the fact that we have

free choice to go to any school

701

:

we want to is problematic.

702

:

And I think that there's issues

there because we can't plan.

703

:

We essentially.

704

:

Essentially overcomplicate things.

705

:

I know school gets enough resources as

a result that so we're under resourced.

706

:

We're underfunded schools.

707

:

Don't have wraparound services

for children not getting

708

:

the service that they need.

709

:

And we also don't have enough physical

space or good physical spaces in our

710

:

schools, so it's all those things.

711

:

It's a weird, it's a

balance that we have really.

712

:

We have a really high standard of teacher.

713

:

We who work really well,

vocationally in some ways to get

714

:

the best out of a bad situation.

715

:

And somehow right now it's succeeds.

716

:

We are up there as one of supposedly

the best education systems in the world.

717

:

And yes, What it could be like.

718

:

If with a little bit of extra money, we

score the lowest in the amount of money

719

:

that's spent on education in the OACD.

720

:

And yet we still come out very well.

721

:

And I think a lot of

countries I remember covering.

722

:

Scotland's ask, there is a Scotland

we're looking at how is the

723

:

Irish education so successful.

724

:

Despite everything they add.

725

:

The conclusions are absolutely.

726

:

Nonsensical in many ways.

727

:

I don't know.

728

:

I don't I it's it's I

always think we're lucky.

729

:

We're just lucky we have good people

and I think that's why we do so

730

:

well, but very interesting to see

John Bo's analysis of Singapore.

731

:

And probably a nice way

to end this episode.

732

:

I cover lots of other

stories in my newsletter.

733

:

Just to run through a couple of them

there, so you can see them at the cooktop.

734

:

At the primary schools,

books was actually covered.

735

:

I thought it never, I thought it wouldn't

be a there's the daily mile initiative,

736

:

which I find to interesting you.

737

:

Again, external agencies coming

into schools to do to do things.

738

:

This is as something about sex

as sex education in the UK, and

739

:

because of the changes there, and

I was, I'd be interested in seeing

740

:

people, what people think of that.

741

:

An afterschool club in Dublin.

742

:

Big 200 people protesting because it had

to close because the school building.

743

:

Is full and therefore there's no

room for the afterschool club.

744

:

I'd be interested in what

people think of Mart.

745

:

Smartphones are back.

746

:

I haven't referred them in a couple

of weeks, but they're back in the

747

:

news, my own school and made the news.

748

:

We won the nature hero award.

749

:

Hurray.

750

:

Better personally, is there, . We

look at what are we looking at?

751

:

Hot school, white free school meals

happened from an American point

752

:

of view, which is interesting.

753

:

And we look at class reunions

just for a bit of fun.

754

:

As well at the end, do they

petrify you to cast reunion?

755

:

I went on mine.

756

:

A few years ago, we only ever had one.

757

:

And I don't know what that says.

758

:

And I enjoyed it.

759

:

I have to say, I, I.

760

:

I can't say I was very popular in school.

761

:

I was never like treated

terribly or anything like that.

762

:

But I definitely wasn't cool.

763

:

You be completely on surprised to hear.

764

:

But I, as an adult, it was really

interesting meeting my classmates

765

:

at 20, 20 odd years later.

766

:

And what kind of became of them

and what they do and what they are.

767

:

I didn't, I suppose I wouldn't

say it was terrifying.

768

:

I didn't find it terrifying.

769

:

I definitely was anxious before I went in.

770

:

Would that.

771

:

All those teenage insecurities came back.

772

:

And so on, but look.

773

:

If you've enjoyed this podcast and

I hope he did please do consider

774

:

subscribing to it on your favorite

podcasting episode, as well as subscribe

775

:

and get whatever it is on YouTube.

776

:

If you're on YouTube and if

you've any thoughts or, Or please.

777

:

Got to get onto me.

778

:

I'm very active on ax or

Twitter, Simon and Louis.

779

:

Or you can subscribe to the newsletter.

780

:

So this podcast and lots of other

content come to you directly

781

:

to your inbox every two weeks.

782

:

I do not spam you.

783

:

I promise you, but just go

to onshore dot Nash slash.

784

:

Subscribe, that's it for me

for this time, this week.

785

:

Thanks so much for watching or listening.

786

:

And I'll catch you again

in a couple of weeks time.

787

:

All the very best bye-bye.

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An Irish Primary Education Podcast

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Simon Lewis